POLL: Continue or scrap the Crestwin Bomber stadium project?

From today's Sun...

Enough already!
Re: ‘Jacking up the price,’ Dec. 22.

Much has been said about the stadium financing. Many are having trouble with the arrangement arrived at as the “final” deal.

The best thing so far is the deal is more upfront about who is eventually going to pay for it. It is going to be the fans who go to the games and the rest of the taxpayers who do not go to games.

Some are still of the mind this should be done by the “private” sector. I say it is time these people woke up and faced the facts. There is no private money, there never was, and there never will be.

When Asper presented his plan as a private project, he was not stating the reality of the project. His plan was to be given everything: the team, the stadium and the Polo Park site.

Yes, he was putting forward some private financing, but the amount was so minute and contingent on so many other taxpayer-funded commitments that it could hardly qualify as significant private investment.

The real question is: does it make sense for a city like Winnipeg to have a football team and would such a team be of any benefit to taxpayers?

If the answer is yes, and if it appears that the club, as a club, can never make any money, why would you suppose that “private” investors would want to be part of it? To lose money? No! It is because they count on the taxpayers to foot the bill for any losses.

So let us at least be honest about it: let the taxpayers foot the bill and let the “private investors” stay out of it. To those people who are having difficulty with this I say: enough already!

Giovanni Versace

There is little to love about this stinker of a stadium deal.

Your Comments


Re: Mr.Versace's comment:
I agree that the "stadium deal" stinks.

It did from the beginning, what with the mis-information that was being put out about the state of our present facility. This mis-information is still being put forth by Selinger in the present debate.


The only positive aspect in this "deal" that I can see, is that it has exposed an obvious chasm in our society regarding "needs" and where money should be spent.


Also, it has given the taxpayer a peek at the secret societies that still seem to exist in this city, and has drawn attention to a lot of questionable practices by way too many individuals.


If I was King, a lot of people would be headless.


Alejandro Le Monjello, December 24th 2010, 9:05am

To read this forum it makes you wonder what it would take for people on it to get excited for this city. it seems every thing is bad . We get a world class museum and you whine and cry we 're getting a new stadium there's whining and crying god people no wonder developers shy away from this city.

We should avoid painting everybody with the same brush. Consider addressing the individual.

the real problem is it is so much fun to sit at the computer and criticize for no other reason other to watch us wear out the keyboard.
Any one with any common sense, and there are only 7 of us on this forum, would be able to look at these huge expenditures , which create jobs and a better standard of living in Wpg, and all the other than the common sense 7, cannot see the good going on!
Good point Pav, and welcome to the common sense group of "7"!
Your membership card is en route!
The newspaper accounts complaining that the stadium is all free taxpayer money is so funny. Those bitching about the HRM over budget is so tedious.
The Bomber $115 million and not a penny more comments, and the same with the Mueum are boring.
Those that have taken charge have arranged everything . Any shortfalls in the Museum will be looked after, hopefully with more taxpayer money.
If Harper could blow $2 Billion dollars on that useless G8- G20 meeting my God, we have nothing to worry about!

Pavolo wrote:To read this forum it makes you wonder what it would take for people on it to get excited for this city. it seems every thing is bad . We get a world class museum and you whine and cry we 're getting a new stadium there's whining and crying god people no wonder developers shy away from this city.

That's what we, as fiscal conservatives and smellers of crooked deals and stupid expenditures do for the common good...and for fun sometimes.

Better than some others though...the ones that have their heads up sleazeballs' asses, have never seen a successful business plan in their lives, and have long been drunk from the kool-aid....the ones that couldn't care less where our tax money is spent.

Just say'n.

JTF wrote:

Pavolo wrote:To read this forum it makes you wonder what it would take for people on it to get excited for this city. it seems every thing is bad . We get a world class museum and you whine and cry we 're getting a new stadium there's whining and crying god people no wonder developers shy away from this city.

That's what we, as fiscal conservatives and smellers of crooked deals and stupid expenditures do for the common good...and for fun sometimes.

Better than some others though...the ones that have their heads up sleazeballs' asses, have never seen a successful business plan in their lives, and have long been drunk from the kool-aid....the ones that couldn't care less where our tax money is spent.

Just say'n.

Not to say that this stadium deal wasn't crooked, because it sure turned out to be so, but is this kind of mentality something you are proud of as a Winnipegger? You seem to be very critical of every project that occurs in the city, finding fault in every nook and cranny that you can get into. Maybe I'm wrong, but this is the impression you give quite often, IMO. Winnipeggers can't afford to be THIS critical of every single development in the city, otherwise nothing will ever occur in Winnipeg (sometimes referred to as sleepy hollow).

Are you saying that development is so critical to Winnipeg that we should bend over every chance we can? (That's the impression that you give me from your post.)

Please don't blame me for the city's fu uck ups. Fu ucks ups such as these calming circles, Assiniboine Avenue, Nassau Street, and the hole we will put money into at the Forks, and this stadium.
I just voice my displeasure. You can called it being negative, I call it being vigilant. (I'm sure glad that you don't audit the government's spending btw.)

If you believe that this is positive development and are in favour of such things, we will have to agree to disagree.

There is no positive development in Winnipeg, because of the 99.9% fiscally cheapskate conservative/ no, just plain cheapskates!
Crooked deals? Facts not in evidence!
We have an NDP government (previous Conservative govt cost us The Jets) having to guarantee that a stadium (needed or not needed) will be built!
And do we find that incredible? Look at other stadiums built because a city or a state guaranteed the expense! Lots there! Not in Manitoba? Not in Wpg!
Where are the Jets and the $500,000,000, guesstimate, in business they took with them since 1995?

The real reason why the Jets left is the same reason why they haven't come back (yet). Winnipeg citizens could have dished out millions back then, but the team would have left for the sandy b(it)eaches of Arizona anyways...
The negative nannies are maybe complaining that why isn't there any money for underground utilities rehab projects, while there's public money getting thrown around here and there, with no discretion about where the heck it's actually going...
Then call us negative nannies, or whatever, but we'll always have our say to tackle what might be going wrong in Winnipeg, or Manitoba. Maybe because we care.
Merry Christmas.

JTF wrote:Are you saying that development is so critical to Winnipeg that we should bend over every chance we can? (That's the impression that you give me from your post.)

Please don't blame me for the city's fu uck ups. Fu ucks ups such as these calming circles, Assiniboine Avenue, Nassau Street, and the hole we will put money into at the Forks, and this stadium.
I just voice my displeasure. You can called it being negative, I call it being vigilant. (I'm sure glad that you don't audit the government's spending btw.)

If you believe that this is positive development and are in favour of such things, we will have to agree to disagree.

Yes, I am saying that development IS critical to Winnipeg, for many reason in terms of development as a city. No, I am not saying EVERY development is successful, but to knit pick about every single little flaw in EVERY development, good or bad, is not vigilant; it is being NIMBYish.
I'm curious to know what your opinions are of the new airport terminal, Centreport Canada, The MTS Centre (when it was in planning stages and as it is now), the Entertainment District that will surround the arena, Heritage Landing Appartment (Vancouver-type glass skyscraper). I think these are great developments for the city and have/will enhance the economy, asthetics and quality of life in the city.

As long as I/WE don't have to pay for them, then developments are OK!! lol

Electrician wrote:The real reason why the Jets left is the same reason why they haven't come back (yet). Winnipeg citizens could have dished out millions back then

It wasn't the citizens who made that decision; it was the goverment. I do tend to agree that there wasn't any public funds available at the time and that it was the right decision for the gov't not to get involved, but to blame the citizens for the departure of the Jets is just plain nonsense. If that were true, then there wouldn't have been the mass rally garnering nearly 40,000 men, women and children with their piggy banks, desperate to keep the Jets in Winnipeg.

EdWin wrote:

Electrician wrote:The real reason why the Jets left is the same reason why they haven't come back (yet). Winnipeg citizens could have dished out millions back then

It wasn't the citizens who made that decision; it was the goverment. I do tend to agree that there wasn't any public funds available at the time and that it was the right decision for the gov't not to get involved, but to blame the citizens for the departure of the Jets is just plain nonsense. If that were true, then there wouldn't have been the mass rally garnering nearly 40,000 men, women and children with their piggy banks, desperate to keep the Jets in Winnipeg.

I just pointed out that it wasn't the citizens' fault they left!
The NHL didn't and doesn't want a franchise in Winnipeg, period.
But, in the long run, this decision will hurt the NHL, along with having 30 teams.
Getting back to the stadium, from what I've been reading from various blogs and comments, the NFL is attracting more and more Canadians and the CFL is sort of sitting back and gobbling at what they can get from their 10-ish home games' ticket sales. Private businessmen shouldn't be given the power to do as they like with taxpayers' money, also, period. All this will just impoverish the locals and their will to do something fullfilling towards their own community will diminish.
Distribute worthy projects and jobs, then we'll see a jump in people's enthusiasm and a better perspective in life for them and their families.

Suggest you do some more research e. Maybe isolated in Italy you don't see the growth of the CFL in Canada.

Is this not correct then?
1. Edmonton- 31,762- Down 743 from this point last year
2. Calgary- 31,711- Down 3,092 from this point last year
3. Saskatchewan- 30,048- Down 602 from this point last year
4. BC- 27,339- Up 301 from this point last year
5. Winnipeg- 26,784- Down 2,215 from this point last year
6. Montreal- 25,075- Up 4,875 from this point last year
7. Hamilton- 23,328- Up 792 from this point last year
8. Toronto- 19,975- Down 6,963 from this point last year

I'll take your word for it. That proves it conclusively then.

EdWin wrote:

JTF wrote:Are you saying that development is so critical to Winnipeg that we should bend over every chance we can? (That's the impression that you give me from your post.)

Please don't blame me for the city's fu uck ups. Fu ucks ups such as these calming circles, Assiniboine Avenue, Nassau Street, and the hole we will put money into at the Forks, and this stadium.
I just voice my displeasure. You can called it being negative, I call it being vigilant. (I'm sure glad that you don't audit the government's spending btw.)

If you believe that this is positive development and are in favour of such things, we will have to agree to disagree.

Yes, I am saying that development IS critical to Winnipeg, for many reason in terms of development as a city. No, I am not saying EVERY development is successful, but to knit pick about every single little flaw in EVERY development, good or bad, is not vigilant; it is being NIMBYish.
I'm curious to know what your opinions are of the new airport terminal, Centreport Canada, The MTS Centre (when it was in planning stages and as it is now), the Entertainment District that will surround the arena, Heritage Landing Appartment (Vancouver-type glass skyscraper). I think these are great developments for the city and have/will enhance the economy, asthetics and quality of life in the city.

You don't understand my question.

I asked if you were in favour of development even when the taxpayer is being taken to the cleaners? Even when the developer is lying through his teeth?

I'm against the stadium because we don't need one and the "deal" that was put forth was a scam from the beginning for chrissake.

If you are/were in favour of AS Ker's "deal", you are clearly in the minority or one of his asskissers.

I am also against the dead Asker's Memorial because it will suck $30M a year into a hole with no payback....and that's just approximate figures.

If you think this nonsense should be undertaken before roads, sewers and health care are fixed, again, you are in the minority.

I reckon a minority but we'll never know...as our fu ucken leaders have chosen to dictate to us and not consulted at all in these two matters.

Same thing for Assiniboine, Nassau and the circles. Dumb things that were, in one case revoked, but both gone ahead with with no public involement.

If you think it is wrong to speak out against wasteful spending, you have much to learn.

JTF wrote:

EdWin wrote:

JTF wrote:Are you saying that development is so critical to Winnipeg that we should bend over every chance we can? (That's the impression that you give me from your post.)

Please don't blame me for the city's fu uck ups. Fu ucks ups such as these calming circles, Assiniboine Avenue, Nassau Street, and the hole we will put money into at the Forks, and this stadium.
I just voice my displeasure. You can called it being negative, I call it being vigilant. (I'm sure glad that you don't audit the government's spending btw.)

If you believe that this is positive development and are in favour of such things, we will have to agree to disagree.

Yes, I am saying that development IS critical to Winnipeg, for many reason in terms of development as a city. No, I am not saying EVERY development is successful, but to knit pick about every single little flaw in EVERY development, good or bad, is not vigilant; it is being NIMBYish.
I'm curious to know what your opinions are of the new airport terminal, Centreport Canada, The MTS Centre (when it was in planning stages and as it is now), the Entertainment District that will surround the arena, Heritage Landing Appartment (Vancouver-type glass skyscraper). I think these are great developments for the city and have/will enhance the economy, asthetics and quality of life in the city.

You don't understand my question.

I asked if you were in favour of development even when the taxpayer is being taken to the cleaners? Even when the developer is lying through his teeth?

I'm against the stadium because we don't need one and the "deal" that was put forth was a scam from the beginning for chrissake.

If you are/were in favour of AS Ker's "deal", you are clearly in the minority or one of his asskissers.

I am also against the dead Asker's Memorial because it will suck $30M a year into a hole with no payback....and that's just approximate figures.

If you think this nonsense should be undertaken before roads, sewers and health care are fixed, again, you are in the minority.

I reckon a minority but we'll never know...as our fu ucken leaders have chosen to dictate to us and not consulted at all in these two matters.

Same thing for Assiniboine, Nassau and the circles. Dumb things that were, in one case revoked, but both gone ahead with with no public involement.

If you think it is wrong to speak out against wasteful spending, you have much to learn.

No, I do understand your question, and I partly answered it saying that no, I didn't agree with how the Aspers went about with the development. They did make a mess of it and I don't respect that. IMO, a need for a new stadium is there, in order to help guarentee the long term success of the team in Winnipeg. As for the museum, I am torn on that one. I'll reserve judgement when it is built and given a few years to prove itself.
As for the residential traffic circles, they have been in place for years in both Calgary and Edmonton, and I don't hear people bitching and complaining about them. From my understanding, they help regulate traffic in the residential areas. I am indifferent to them either way.
But again, I ask you, what about the other developments that I have previously mentioned; what is your opinion on them?

JTF wrote:

EdWin wrote:

JTF wrote:Are you saying that development is so critical to Winnipeg that we should bend over every chance we can? (That's the impression that you give me from your post.)

Please don't blame me for the city's fu uck ups. Fu ucks ups such as these calming circles, Assiniboine Avenue, Nassau Street, and the hole we will put money into at the Forks, and this stadium.
I just voice my displeasure. You can called it being negative, I call it being vigilant. (I'm sure glad that you don't audit the government's spending btw.)

If you believe that this is positive development and are in favour of such things, we will have to agree to disagree.

Yes, I am saying that development IS critical to Winnipeg, for many reason in terms of development as a city. No, I am not saying EVERY development is successful, but to knit pick about every single little flaw in EVERY development, good or bad, is not vigilant; it is being NIMBYish.
I'm curious to know what your opinions are of the new airport terminal, Centreport Canada, The MTS Centre (when it was in planning stages and as it is now), the Entertainment District that will surround the arena, Heritage Landing Appartment (Vancouver-type glass skyscraper). I think these are great developments for the city and have/will enhance the economy, asthetics and quality of life in the city.

You don't understand my question.

I asked if you were in favour of development even when the taxpayer is being taken to the cleaners? Even when the developer is lying through his teeth?

I'm against the stadium because we don't need one and the "deal" that was put forth was a scam from the beginning for chrissake.

If you are/were in favour of AS Ker's "deal", you are clearly in the minority or one of his asskissers.

I am also against the dead Asker's Memorial because it will suck $30M a year into a hole with no payback....and that's just approximate figures.

If you think this nonsense should be undertaken before roads, sewers and health care are fixed, again, you are in the minority.

I reckon a minority but we'll never know...as our fu ucken leaders have chosen to dictate to us and not consulted at all in these two matters.

Same thing for Assiniboine, Nassau and the circles. Dumb things that were, in one case revoked, but both gone ahead with with no public involement.

If you think it is wrong to speak out against wasteful spending, you have much to learn.

Great post, JTF. Well said.

The stadium is not nearly as bad as the deal Phoenix gave the Coyotes , besides 130 mill will not solve health cares woes and if the gas tax went to the roads it was intended to go for boy could we lay some concrete . Face it no sports facilities get done without tax dollars here or America .
The museum is as some one else said a wait and see thing it will take some time to get its self established . The 30 mill it spends maintaining it self is good as alot of that is localy spent .

JTF if you think this deal is wrong then where would you spend it as a one time thing . And tell me what the city and the province would get for your plan .

I think I have found the flaw in the negative comments that get posted about how our "ELECTED" government officials decide to spend taxpayer money!
They are elected, they have a certain amount of money to spend in each of their budgets, and they have decied to spend it in an acceptable manner, even though they know that there will be criticism no matter what they decide.
$230 million dollars on a museum is no big deal. What is a big deal, in my opinion, is that this Museum is the 1st mseum ever built with federal money outside of Ottawa!
I don't know who managed that, but he/she should be applauded!
Does anyone know who managed that?
Please get his/her name up for an award!

These are great topics that deserve their own threads. Let's keep this thread on topic: "Continue or scrap the Crestwin Bomber stadium project?"

Rosie. You sound just like an entitled Liberal...so what's $230 M eh?

Man the couch business must be really good if you think that amount is peanuts....or no big deal.

Well, what about those yearly carrying costs???

$30M (today only) could go a long way in fixing some of our infrastrucure eh...a very long way.

Harper was an idiot for supporting this stupid project in the beginning imo.

EdWin wrote:
No, I do understand your question, and I partly answered it saying that no, I didn't agree with how the Aspers went about with the development. They did make a mess of it and I don't respect that.

Boy. It sure is hard to get you to admit that you wouldn't support a scam, but your answer suggests that, if it had not been pointed out to you, you would have gone along with it.

I hope this makes you aware that it important to look at things diligently and when you see a scam, to point it out, dispite being called a negative nanny for doing so.

IMO, a need for a new stadium is there, in order to help guarentee the long term success of the team in Winnipeg.

I have yet to be sold on the idea that we need a new stadium. I do believe that the existing one needs an up-grade though.
I also believe that the "we NEED a new stadium" mantra was all part of AS Ker's scam. (Without the need for a new stadium, nothing would have gotten off the ground eh. )

And let's be clear here...concrete can last for centuries eh. So, to say it is worn out defies my sensibilities and makes me question why I am being lied to.

Also, presently, the number that was quoted to "repair" the stadium is around $14M...a hellava long way from the $50M number that is being spewed by (even) Selinger himself nowadays.

If this is not spin, I don't know what is...and that's another reason I question the need for a new stadium btw.

As for the museum, I am torn on that one. I'll reserve judgement when it is built and given a few years to prove itself.

What does it have to prove? That it can waste $30M a year? That it can generate more controversy than it can healing? That very few people go to "buzz killers" on their holidays?

...but whatever...

As for the residential traffic circles, they have been in place for years in both Calgary and Edmonton, and I don't hear people bitching and complaining about them.

Sooo? We shouldn't complain because they don't? I don't agree with your logic.

From my understanding, they help regulate traffic in the residential areas. I am indifferent to them either way.

There are way too many things about these circles to go into again. I'll just say, the entire scheme was ill-advised and not well thought out imo.

It was a part of Flaherty's money trough that the city went to feed at but the money went to feed the gluttons and not the hungry imo, if you'll pardon the analogy.

But again, I ask you, what about the other developments that I have previously mentioned; what is your opinion on them?

The new airport is great.

The first time I went there I got a ticket that I eventually beat.

The next two times times were by limo and were without problems.

The last time, the other day, I got lost when dropping off some folks.

But, I like the place.

RE: MTS Center. I've never been there and object to government funding of such enterprises on principal.

RE: Entertainment District. The excrement that we cleaned up on Main Street has now taken over Portage Avenue and until such time as the area is again, cleaned up, the downtown will continue to be another hole in which we throw gobbs of "revitalization" money (possibly for yet another 40 years eh ).

RE: Heritage Landing. Never heard of it.

________________

....and don't ever make me go through this much effort to reply again...or I'll be using a lot of f-words next time.

So once again I ask where and how do you want the money spent so far you have been as vague as Good old Stephy and not spending it doe,s not count as you and I know no politician can do that .

Pav. You're Liberal roots are showing.

So once again I ask where and how do you want the money spent...

How about they not spend the money at all?