accident at traffic circle in river heights, one man in hospital

If you talk the Lanark intersection you would have to be preety drunk to hit this thing it is a level road .

Maybe they need this sign at the circles:

@Jondo, Didn't you just say 'idots they are'? Anwyay, if the problem is education, how big of a problem is there really? The information on how to go through them is freely available to anyone who wants it. There are clear rules on what to do. And if people aren't educated on how to deal with them, why are they not going through there with extra caution?

Deank wrote:"But in reality if you're driving at night on a road you don't know well you have to be cautious."

like I said.. technically your fault sure... but in reality they need to design the road better

Or just put up a sign saying there's a sharp turn ahead. Like putting up a sign to say there's a traffic circle ahead.

umcrouc0 wrote:

grumpy old man wrote:I don't believe you've driven through those circles. Maybe through one or two, from one direction. You and sputnik should drive both ways at 8 am or 5 pm. Tell me then what you think.

The only time I drove through them was during rush hour one day, but it was only once so it could have been a good day. If they're busy or not the way to navigate them never changes. It could become a mess because people aren't following what they are supposed to do or that the flow of traffic in one direction makes it take some time to get through the intersection from another direction (similar to a 2-way stop). But the actual rules of the road don't change.

I'm telling ya there are blind spots. And some of the "lanes" have been constricted. In both these instances you almost have to come to a complete stop to ensure there are no other cars approaching, even at a reasonable speed, to avoid a collision. Now add in cyclists. Can you seriously tell me these are safely designed? Let's wait until winter obscures and constricts these roadways all the more.

BTW I have ZERO problem with the properly designed traffic circles on Waterfront. I also don't mind at all not stopping at four way stops in favour of even the poorly designed circles on Grosvenor (and elsewhere in Fort Rouge and River heights).

I say again, these circles are MORE dangerous than they need be.

umcrouc0 wrote:

Deank wrote:"But in reality if you're driving at night on a road you don't know well you have to be cautious."

like I said.. technically your fault sure... but in reality they need to design the road better

Or just put up a sign saying there's a sharp turn ahead. Like putting up a sign to say there's a traffic circle ahead.

you know they never put signs up for the traffic circles until about a week after right?

Wait! It ain't over yet!
You'll always have a drunk driver (or maybe sober, too) drive straight through the circle, up and over the eventual bunch of flowers planted in the middle, with his 4X4... Happens all the time here...

Deank wrote:

umcrouc0 wrote:

Deank wrote:"But in reality if you're driving at night on a road you don't know well you have to be cautious."

like I said.. technically your fault sure... but in reality they need to design the road better

Or just put up a sign saying there's a sharp turn ahead. Like putting up a sign to say there's a traffic circle ahead.

you know they never put signs up for the traffic circles until about a week after right?

Yeah. So now the issue is fixed?

in my opinion?

no, not really. The signs are woefully inadequate to let people know what to do.

makes one wonder if they just picked the first sign they could think of when people started complaining.

facetious it was. How educated are you on traffic circles? How about the rest of the drivers in Manitoba who may be on that street tomorrow and into the future? The answer is zero. that is the onus of the people responsible for putting them in - not the people that may encounter them. Funny how we haven't seen a JustCircleTraffic campaign in the media prior to this surprise to all. That's because there's no concern - Winnipeggers will simply divide and attack each other as being idiots.

Let me tell you this. The State of Georgia has the highest compliance rate for seat-belt use in the entire USA. They also have the lowest fine for nomn-compliance in the USA - $15. How can that be? Because they promoted the virtues in a campaign when seat-belt laws came into effect. The states that created $200 fines and did nothing else - are shamelessly at the bottom of compliance list. But they're proud of their multi-million dollar enforcement program that catches a few idiots - although they have to really enforce now because most comply. Their success numbers (fines) are due only to agressive enforcement in the name of fundraising. SO it depends on whether you have an interest in safety - or the idiot/fundraising approach to safety.

Pavolo wrote:I have driven Grovener more then you might know .

Okay, drive it now, with the traffic circles. It's a little different from the spring of this year. Then come back here and tell me those IMPROVE safety. Take special care at the circles that have the lane constricted upon the immediate approach.

Nope. It gets worse, alot worse...
For anyone using GPS navigators, those circles won't be updated into them for a few years at least. So now when the navigator tells you to turn left, what will you do?
:party 003:

grumpy old man wrote:
I'm telling ya there are blind spots. And some of the "lanes" have been constricted. In both these instances you almost have to come to a complete stop to ensure there are no other cars approaching, even at a reasonable speed, to avoid a collision. Now add in cyclists. Can you seriously tell me these are safely designed? Let's wait until winter obscures and constricts these roadways all the more.

BTW I have ZERO problem with the properly designed traffic circles on Waterfront. I also don't mind at all not stopping at four way stops in favour of even the poorly designed circles on Grosvenor (and elsewhere in Fort Rouge and River heights).

I say again, these circles are MORE dangerous than they need be.

But I think you're missing what 'traffic calming' features are supposed to do. They are there to put physical barriers up to change the way that people need to drive in those areas and to change traffic flow patterns. If you need to come to close to a complete stop before going through, they are doing exactly what they are designed to do. You might not think that it's a good route to be modifying in that way because of how it's currently used. The little cirlces are basically only there to force people to slow down and not give them the option of blowing straight through a stop sign.

FYI...

I would PREFER four way stop signs over these circles.

Regardless of how poor Winnipeg drivers may be, these very specific traffic calming measures were NEVER communicated to Winnipeg drivers.

I just renewed my driver license, registration and insurance. Guess what? NO INFORMATION inserted in that mailing.

umcrouc0 wrote:But I think you're missing what 'traffic calming' features are supposed to do. They are there to put physical barriers up to change the way that people need to drive in those areas and to change traffic flow patterns. If you need to come to close to a complete stop before going through, they are doing exactly what they are designed to do. You might not think that it's a good route to be modifying in that way because of how it's currently used. The little cirlces are basically only there to force people to slow down and not give them the option of blowing straight through a stop sign.

How can you say this? That's absurd.

Traffic calming measures are what they are. I understand the concept thank you very much.

But only if properly designed.

And please, I've been driving for almost 40 years. I can count on one hand the number of times people have "blown" through stop signs that I've witnessed.

Please show us some sort of evidence that demonstrates drivers have been blowing through stop signs at even a modest rate.

These traffic circles are about AT infrastructure. Keep that in mind.

Jondo wrote:facetious it was. How educated are you on traffic circles? How about the rest of the drivers in Manitoba who may be on that street tomorrow and into the future? The answer is zero. that is the onus of the people responsible for putting them in - not the people that may encounter them. Funny how we haven't seen a JustCircleTraffic campaign in the media prior to this surprise to all. That's because there's no concern - Winnipeggers will simply divide and attack each other as being idiots.

Considering that the rules on traffic circles are in the drivers manual, I'd assume the drivers of tomorrow and in the future would be educated on them. It is actually laid out in the manual so there should be no reason for new drivers not to be educated on them. These aren't even the first traffic circles in the city so it's not like someone just made up a new form of intersection and didn't tell anyone what it was.

umcrouc0 wrote:These aren't even the first traffic circles in the city so it's not like someone just made up a new form of intersection and didn't tell anyone what it was.

These are NOT traffic circles. These are barriers. Let's get that straight.

I saw a school bus really struggle getting through one this morning. There is a fire hall on Grosvenor.

Do you suppose these barriers will delay response time?

I drive through 3 of the stupid fricking barriers every day twice a day to drop my daughter off at school and am only surprised there aren't more collisions. The one at Grosvenor and Waverly is still treated like a 4 way 95% of the time except for the 5 % who drive straight through without even looking. It's a nightmare that forces you to behave like an idiot as well since you also have to stop to avoid all the other confused drivers who can't figure out how to yield and are sitting at the intersection waving everyone else through. It is impossible to predict anyone else's behaviour at the intersection which only makes it worse.

I

grumpyrom wrote:It is impossible to predict anyone else's behaviour at the intersection which only makes it worse.

BINGO!

Those that say "they only have to learn" how to navigate these obstacles completely ignores the fact those same drivers are apparently "blowing" through four way stop signs.

Ah the drivers manual again. There is a component to life called Normal Practice. It's learned behavior. Don't be foolish with the technical argument or you might as well tell the parents of the deceased flagger that you learned in school to not stand in the middle of the road. If the traffic-circle accident/liability issue went to court it would be argued on reasonable grounds of responsibility. I maintain that the driver could easily take the position that he/she did not expect an obstruction and that should there be one - the onus be on the party who placed the danger to inform and educate users.

Have you ever been to England? They have traffic circles - we don't. But what they also have, that we don't, is generations of drivers that have become accustomed to them. They also know how to drive on the other side of the road. How many accidents do you think we'd have in Winnipeg next week if they adopted, unbeknowst, that we were switching sides of the road - england style? There would be crashes galore. Would we all be idiots? Real traffic circles primarily have a merge function - they are not deployed in England to reduce speed. These are obstructions and nothing more. The person in stable condition in the hospital should sue the idiots who erected them. Telling somebody who was killed by a gun that they should have read the manual is - and I'm sorry - idiotic.

I had more trouble looking both ways and crossing the streets as a pedestrian in England, rather than driving through their traffic circles.


Thanks Jondo, you beat me to it.

grumpy old man wrote:

umcrouc0 wrote:These aren't even the first traffic circles in the city so it's not like someone just made up a new form of intersection and didn't tell anyone what it was.

These are NOT traffic circles. These are barriers. Let's get that straight.

I saw a school bus really struggle getting through one this morning. There is a fire hall on Grosvenor.

Do you suppose these barriers will delay response time?

Yes, they are barriers. Because they are 'traffic calming' measures. But the rules are the same as they are for roundabouts. I'm not making up what 'traffic calming' is or what the features are designed to do, just stating what it's designed to do. They are there to slow traffic and to change traffic flow. And are often put on residential routes that people are using to cut through into other areas. It is related to the AT routes, in that the 'traffic calming' measures are there to control traffic flow through these routes. If they are making it annoying to drive through the area, they are doing what they are designed to do.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/programs/environment-utsp-trafficcalming-1172.htm

Excerpt from the 1999 report referenced

"Circles prevent drivers from speeding through intersections
by impeding the straight-through movement (see
figure 3.17) and forcing drivers to slow down to yield.
Drivers must first turn to the right, then to the left as
they pass the circle, and then back to the right again after
clearing the circle."

I'm not making this stuff up, a circle is put in an intersection so people can't go straight through. It seems like people are acting like Winnipeg came up with this crazy idea that no one's ever thought of before. If you actually look at the 1999 report on that web-site there are some that have been used which look a lot more conufusing than the ones we have.

These obstacles have proven more safe than four way stop signs?

The point being - further to my last post - that the "gun" itself is faulty - AND it didn't come with a manual.

@ umcrouc0

Go read that link where it discusses emergency vehicle routes and transit routes.

I guess my point is getting lost in translation. I believe four way stop signs are a much safer traffic calming measure than these circles. And cheaper to boot.

Tell me again how this is better.

Jondo wrote:Ah the drivers manual again. There is a component to life called Normal Practice. It's learned behavior. Don't be foolish with the technical argument or you might as well tell the parents of the deceased flagger that you learned in school to not stand in the middle of the road. If the traffic-circle accident/liability issue went to court it would be argued on reasonable grounds of responsibility. I maintain that the driver could easily take the position that he/she did not expect an obstruction and that should there be one - the onus be on the party who placed the danger to inform and educate users.

Have you ever been to England? They have traffic circles - we don't. But what they also have, that we don't, is generations of drivers that have become accustomed to them. They also know how to drive on the other side of the road. How many accidents do you think we'd have in Winnipeg next week if they adopted, unbeknowst, that we were switching sides of the road - england style? There would be crashes galore. Would we all be idiots? Real traffic circles primarily have a merge function - they are not deployed in England to reduce speed. These are obstructions and nothing more. The person in stable condition in the hospital should sue the idiots who erected them. Telling somebody who was killed by a gun that they should have read the manual is - and I'm sorry - idiotic.

I've never driven in England, but I've driven down Waterfront. And in numerous other Canadian cities that have these things. And in US cities that have them. Because they have been part of city planning for decades.

So, you actually don't think that new drivers should be required to know what's in the drivers manual? I could see having the argument that old drivers wouldn't know, but new drivers? Last you said that education was the problem, but now it's not education but learned behavior? Those aren't the same thing. I'm fine with arguing against either, or both. But if education is the problem, and new drivers are required to learn the contents and be tested on the drivers manual, it's not actually a problem for new drivers. Because that actually is a requirement when you do the written portion of your test in this city. Considering that you're saying the issue is a problem because people locally aren't aware of it, having material on it in the required readings for drivers being licenced locally, there's no education issue for new drivers. So, I don't really know what you're going on about.