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ground breaking ceremonies... should they maybe break ground?

+5
grumpy old man
Triniman
Electrician
FlyingRat
Deank
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Guest


Guest

Since Winnipeg has a huge ethnic Ukrainan population, I would just like to educate some forum members who may not be familiar with the plight of the Ukranians prior to WW2:

Starting from the late 1920s, Ukraine was involved in the Soviet industrialisation and the republic's industrial output quadrupled in the 1930s. However, the industrialisation had a heavy cost for the peasantry, demographically a backbone of the Ukrainian nation. To satisfy the state's need for increased food supplies and to finance industrialisation, Stalin instituted a program of collectivisation of agriculture as the state combined the peasants' lands and animals into collective farms and enforcing the policies by the regular troops and secret police. Those who resisted were arrested and deported and the increased production quotas were placed on the peasantry. The collectivisation had a devastating effect on agricultural productivity. As the members of the collective farms were not allowed to receive any grain until the unachievable quotas were met, starvation in the Soviet Union became widespread. In 1932–33, millions starved to death in a man-made famine known as Holodomor. Scholars are divided as to whether this famine fits the definition of genocide, but the Ukrainian parliament and more than a dozen other countries recognise it as the genocide of the Ukrainian people.
The times of industrialisation and Holodomor also coincided with the Soviet assault on the national political and cultural elite often accused in "nationalist deviations". Two waves of Stalinist political repression and persecution in the Soviet Union (1929–34 and 1936–38) resulted in the killing of some 681,692 people; this included four-fifths of the Ukrainian cultural elite and three quarters of all the Red Army's higher-ranking officers.

grumpy old man

grumpy old man
administrator
administrator

See. All the more reason for the CHRM to exist. Such evil should not be forgotten.

Guest

Anonymous
Guest

grumpy old man wrote:I don't deny it. But so what? Why do you care how they spend their money and influence? If you were part of that genocide you might feel it is a little more important to you as well. Jews are also disproportionately represented in the medical community. And in the comedy community. Again so what?

Before you take this any further explain what is WRONG with it. Else you sound racist.

With all due respect, GOM, I usually steer clear of a debate when the "r" word is implied. Let's just say we agree to disagree...

Triniman

Triniman
general-contributor
general-contributor

grumpy old man wrote:
Triniman wrote:Some good comments here. Hopefully, some of these people will join this forum. Good job marketing.

http://blog.canoe.ca/raisinghell/2008/12/19/human_rights_museum_nice_but_pricey#comments

I liked this comment,

"There is a very long list of needs and it's outrageous to even be
talking of funding museums and stadiums. The priority needs list
includes decaying cities infrastructure, roads and highways (especially widening #1, 50 MRI machines, more doctors - and the list goes on. It maddens me when we're told we can't afford these needs and then we hear about 100's of millions for other non-necessities like the two at
issue."
That comment was made by a new member to this forum, and a friend of mine. We disagree but keep it respectful without the baiting.

You don't have to, but could you respond here to the quote?

grumpy old man

grumpy old man
administrator
administrator

There is an assumption that the needs are mutually exclusive. If one wanted to one could spend every tax dollar on health, education and infrastructure from now to the end of time. And still not get caught up.

My point is society is not just about surviving. Society requires more than roads and stethoscopes and books. Nobody should ever assume I advocate we let peeps suffer in favour of Assiniboine Park or Bears on Broadway.

I say we can do both. In the case of the stadium and the museum there is significant private money involved. In the case of the stadiums and museums everywhere there is ALWAYS significant public investment. IMO most simply would not exist today otherwise.

Guest

Anonymous
Guest

The point you're missing GOM, is that there really isn't an endless supply of money for all projects. We can't do everything like you suggest.


One shouldn't run out and buy a new car when their house is in foreclosure.

grumpy old man

grumpy old man
administrator
administrator

Jesus H. Christ. I'm not missing anything. Where did I friggen say we do "everything". Who is in foreclosure? Is Canada bankrupt? Nice argument. And don't forget that you were against the museum and stadium when times were good. So, let's twist the argument every which way to suit the times.

Guest

Anonymous
Guest

Perhaps you are not aware of the economic reality in which we find ourselves??

The museum and stadium are nonsense-projects...nothing more...something we cal certainly do without til we are flush. When our sewers are crumbling is not the time to be building such things imo.

grumpy old man

grumpy old man
administrator
administrator

Screw you J2F. No need to be condescending.



Last edited by grumpy old man on Tue Dec 23, 2008 12:13 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Added the Screw you... ;> I will now suspend myself.)

AGEsAces

AGEsAces
moderator
moderator

JTF wrote:Perhaps you are not aware of the economic reality in which we find ourselves??

The museum and stadium are nonsense-projects...nothing more...something we cal certainly do without til we are flush. When our sewers are crumbling is not the time to be building such things imo.

Actually...that's part of the reason city management is such a tricky slope.

It's great to fix roads, sewers, etc. if the city is running in a surplus of money. If the city just has tons of money coming in, and people aren't looking for work.

But how much tax revenue does a new road bring in? Or a new sewer? How much revenue can you create by rebuilding infrastructure? Quick answer...$0.

And I will grant that the museum project is a burden on the taxpayer...no argument there. But that's the museum itself, and hopefully (with any good luck), it will be able to become self-sustaining...or at least not quite a burden.

But, the stadium...while drawing tax dollars initially for construction...will become self-sustaining. An income generator.

And here's why the city planners look at those ventures before a roadway:

1) While the facility itself may be a burden on the taxpayer...they attract visitors, and they encourage people to spend money...which means more taxes coming in, to provide additional monies for infrastructure.

2) There is a fixed budget for road maintenance & repair (and sewer/sidewalk/etc.). That budget is used each year to target "problem & priority" areas, and if there's any left...they pick a couple of smaller projects. If there's an influx of money (like the feds are offering)...then they target something bigger. But, because the way government does their budgets, if they suddenly allocate additional funding in their budget for infrastructure one year...then they have to maintain or increase it the following year...and without additional funding...that's not likely to happen.

Like it or not, we need a couple of major attractions in Winnipeg. Things that will actually draw people here so they can spend money on other things. The museum will increase hotel, food, and shopping. And with the new hotel extortion fee...that's even more money for the roads, schools, health care.

If you REALLY want to find money for the roads...let's take it from the people sleeping on them. Stop handing out money and giving it away to people who don't appreciate it, and quite frankly don't deserve it.

Yes...I know it's Christmas, and I'm the first one to help someone who is actually in NEED. But most of who the government "assists" are not in NEED...they are in WANT...and should be working for their handouts.

http://www.photage.ca

Deank

Deank
contributor eminence
contributor eminence

But the stadium wont actually INCREASE any revenue, just relocate it to a different are of the city.. At least as far as I am aware there are no projections for more events at the new stadium ( other then perhaps some more kids practicing there during the winter ).

AGEsAces

AGEsAces
moderator
moderator

Deank wrote:But the stadium wont actually INCREASE any revenue, just relocate it to a different are of the city.. At least as far as I am aware there are no projections for more events at the new stadium ( other then perhaps some more kids practicing there during the winter ).

Yes, it will.

As (if they go with the plan at the University)...the Bison will use the stadium as well.

And the stadium will be bigger than it is now (more seats), and there will be more merchandising and food options available for purchases.

So, bigger stadium means more people using it.
Means more additional parking fees
More expenditures
More ticket sales
More hotel stays
etc.

And, less maintenance costs (in theory), than trying to maintain the current stadium which is falling apart.

Plus, the new design is supposed to provide more functionality....which means (perhaps) concerts, other games, other events. In theory, the new stadium will have more activity than the old one ever did...and every time the stadium gets filled with people...it's more revenue and taxes being generated.

Certainly better than a stadium that is only used a few months a year.

http://www.photage.ca

grumpy old man

grumpy old man
administrator
administrator

Hard to say what new revenues the new stadium will create. We can assume increased attendance will help (in my world that is a given). Plus the added benefit to the University sport teams.

By moving the stadium, something else will move into Polo Park. Without knowing what that might be it is hard to say if new revenues will result. But that area will surely improve without that ugly dinosaur sitting there.

Suffice to say the city needs to grow. It needs new structures, even in trying times. Maybe because of trying times.

grumpy old man

grumpy old man
administrator
administrator

Yeah, but some bozo signed away potential concerts etc. to the MTS Centre. Maybe shows that the MTS Centre could not accommodate will go there. More Rolling Stones concerts perhaps?

Deank

Deank
contributor eminence
contributor eminence

"Yeah, but some bozo signed away potential concerts etc. to the MTS Centre."

AND BOOM GOES THE DYNAMITE!

exactly what I was hinting at. without being able to go to a real dome, the uses are very limited. The Bison sports already happen GOM.. regardless of the place they are played so a new stadium wont help them at all.
More seating? Not a frick of a lot more is it? Not going to make any real difference.

All this stadium will do is move the current revenue from the Polo Park area to the Uof M area. So not much real benefit.

The "old" polo park location if no longer used should be turned into some green space. More retail in that area without substanial upgrades to the roads is a very bad idea.

grumpy old man

grumpy old man
administrator
administrator

Yeah, not a lot more seating. Mayhaps I should have said better seating.

Green space there would be peachy keen. Won't happen though, but with a little expert planning they could create a greener area.

Guest

Anonymous
Guest

They need to add another 4 lanes to St. James imo.

The only reason to move the stadium is to free up the space for more retail...it'll be green space only if they use paint.

Deank

Deank
contributor eminence
contributor eminence

Exactly... move stadium to free up retail space... and building mor retail space in that area makes ZERO sense.

Hence.. dont freakin move the stadium!

AGEsAces

AGEsAces
moderator
moderator

grumpy old man wrote:Suffice to say the city needs to grow. It needs new structures, even in trying times. Maybe because of trying times.

Until the (stupid) baseball strike a few years ago...professional baseball had not stopped in the US since it's conception.

They played through wars, and recessions...they created a sense of community in hard times.

It's possible, providing a new venue, and a decent team, that the community could rally...and though times are hard for many...could find a common venue to meet and celebrate.

http://www.photage.ca

Deank

Deank
contributor eminence
contributor eminence

The Canadian war museum and the Canadian museum of civilization. Together bring in about 15 million in revenue while getting about 60 million in goverment funding. yearly

So turn this around to the CMHRV and it should generate about 7.5 million in revenue for its 20-30 ( whatever ) million in yearly funding.

so..at 250K people that would mean we will be charging.

$30 per visit.

( which is exactly what it costs to visit 10 museums over 7 days in Canada's Capital region )

or should we hold this museum to a different standard simply because its in Winnipeg or because of its area of speciality?

grumpy old man

grumpy old man
administrator
administrator

Nah, I believe that is why there is an annual subsidy.

Deank

Deank
contributor eminence
contributor eminence

there is an annual subsidy at the other two museums mentioned. And theirs is even a tiny bit more then the CMHRV.
How about this.. should the museum subsidy be based on actuall attendance?
ie.. 250K people = 22 million.
more people = more money to a max of 30 million
less people = less moeny to a min of 14 Million

way less people consecutively year after year = consider shutting it down?

(ugg if you look at the number 22million / 250K people = a subsidy of a crazy amount per person )

Triniman

Triniman
general-contributor
general-contributor

Here's something that not being talked about.

How long is the annual subsidy supposed to be $22 million before it increases?

If you've seen the business plan, spill the beans.

grumpy old man

grumpy old man
administrator
administrator

Have you actually asked for this mysterious business plan yet? Until you reply that you have in fact asked for it you are hereby forbidden to mention it again. Surprised

Triniman

Triniman
general-contributor
general-contributor

grumpy old man wrote:Have you actually asked for this mysterious business plan yet? Until you reply that you have in fact asked for it you are hereby forbidden to mention it again. Surprised

I've written to Toews but had no reply. Mind you, he's likely just a frustrated pawn and unable to state his true feelings about this project.

Deank

Deank
contributor eminence
contributor eminence

unlimited according to the creation of it.

"On 20 April 2007, Prime Minister Harper announced the Government’s intention to provide financial support for the creation and maintenance of the CMHR"

The details of the act can be read here, with special note on not an actual single dollar value is ever discussed.

Sponsored content



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