City to steal more money from Winnnipeggers pockets AND shut the housing market down.

Yup...Once you know where every load of gravel went etc...You now can scrutinize gov. and make them accountable...Period...Governments have been using the big numbers to hide behind for years which do not ever tell the whole story...

The details are in the small numbers which auditors look at some but never all and it is where most of the government waste is...and those are the numbers I want the public have access to...which will then help the public make governments "Accountable" back to the tax paying public...

I can 100% guarantee anyone that once the fine details become public...There will be some in the public that will make a "sport of it" to go over the numbers and I would love to see what they would come up with...It would make our governments squirm to say the least...and...

And my final point is that the technology is there for governments to start providing these details...Hell I'll even tell anyone that the information is already there on data bases with the government but the public cannot access it...and those that get to see the data are employees who are bond by-law to not talk about it etc regardless of with the new whistle blower legislation or not etc...Hell look at what's happening with the independent consulting firm and Hydro and the lengths Hydro is going to prevent it from going public...The are many details in that report that could make everyone squirm at Hydro or with the Province...None the less...For most of what I am talking about in terms of the fine details...You almost have to be an accountant or at the very least have a decent understanding about accounting and how accounting works etc...GGF

well much like Access to information and human rights cases I can see some people being complete dumbasses and costing us millions of dollars in their quests to find out about 3 cents.

The level of access to accounting information discussed is far beyond what is reasonable. At some point, there has to be some trust in the system and the integrity of those administering it. Does a load of gravel sometimes go astray, probably, but at what expense do you track that kind of detail?

Auditors also look at systems in place to ensure that they protect the assets of the organization. If there are weaknesses, they recommend solutions.

Recently, there was reported abuses of claims for expenses by provincial MLA's, and while it made a good headline, and gave something to blog about for a couple of days, there was really no substance to it. The bigger issues facing us are the massive $$'s spent on programs which produce questionable benefits. Counting loads of gravel is not the solution.

Put checks and balances in place to ensure the small potatoes are not being absconded. Let the auditors review the details. That is what they are put in place for.

Be careful what you ask for.

"The bigger issues facing us are the massive $$'s spent on programs which produce questionable benefits. "

100% agreed.


now if one of those loads of gravel that go missing can make it down AAs back lane so I dont kill myself whilst stalking him... that would be a good thing

That's point GOL...

The public is under the assumption auditors look at those small details and they do but only on a minimal basis and also what the public doesn't always realize is that the governments auditors report right back to the government and with the big numbers which are the ones you and I get to see only...and for the record Sammy loves replacing/moving the gov auditors (emp) that he doesn't like etc...

So yeah...It's a way for governments to hide behind the fine details which is exactly what they do and are getting away with it because the public is not demanding for changes which is what I have been doing...Let me see the fine print/details...It is the public's money and the public should (does) have the "right" to see what is going on with it...Period...and...

And as far as being careful about what I wish for...I know exactly what I want and it is not a wish because I also have many who are starting to understand my message about the fine print/detail also and in tough economic times...That message becomes clearer...It's in the small details where most of our government waste occurs...Let's start making them "Accountable" for that waste...Let us all look at the fine or details...Period...GGF

@GGF, if you want the details, be my guest, but don't expect me to pay for it. Auditors don't check every detail, but they perform tests to see if the systems in place work or are deficient. If deficient, they will do more testing and make recommendations to correct the system.

It seems that you are inferring wide-spread corruption at every level. We're talking about the City of Winnipeg here, not the Virginia Fontaine Treatment Centre, and remember that they got found out eventually.

If you have solid proof for your suspicions, then present them clearly and concisely, otherwise they become just baseless accusations.

eg...Some of the details...What truly happens with the load of sand? Did it go to this project or that project? Why?...Simple...You can now calculate the cost of a project with accuracy...Period...

And as far as the info costing a whole lot extra to implement...Governments already have the info on their "internal" data bases and in each departments that once again...The public does not have access to which could now simply be "unlocked" for the public to see it...Technologies are here now that allow for this that simply wasn't there 20yrs ago etc...and my point as always...The public has the right to see those details and also why would governments be afraid of it if governments have nothing to hide as they say so often they don't have anything hide...Open the books already and let's see...and then the public can truly make governments "accountable" and for the record...The public will not have to wait for an election to do so etc...Period...GGF

GGF wrote:Yup...Once you know where every load of gravel went etc...You now can scrutinize gov. and make them accountable...Period...

I don't know. Call me crazy, but I think that level of detail would just completely bog down the work done by govt. Because, let's face it, there's never ONE way to do things properly. Every yahoo in the city who scrutinizes those numbers is going to think they could have done it better, or different, or cheaper, and that's all the world needs is more armchair politicians.

There's going to be a waste of money no matter what. It comes with a governing body. I'm cool with that.

Deank wrote:well much like Access to information and human rights cases I can see some people being complete dumbasses and costing us millions of dollars in their quests to find out about 3 cents.

Ah! Dean beat me to it, and said it better than I did.

Your missing the point...

Which isn't about every load but the same data #'s that is already available to gov emps on their computers with the #'s already which the public cannot see...There are "no new data base(s)" that need to be created and just access to the ones that are already there and access to the public now...and also for the record...The only ones that truly are important are the data from individual managers of a department of sub departments...You don't have to access "every" gov emp data....No way...That would be insane...but on the other hand....the heads of departments is something very doable...and that's were you will find the details in...GGF

"the heads of departments is something very doable.."

and that is what we hire Council members for.

To hide the numbers... GGF

Mantha wrote:

Deank wrote:well much like Access to information and human rights cases I can see some people being complete dumbasses and costing us millions of dollars in their quests to find out about 3 cents.

Ah! Dean beat me to it, and said it better than I did.

Thats because he's Dean and you're not.

I take issue with a couple of things.

First, I don't agree that its as easy as portrayed. As many of you know, I do the accounting for a high profile charitable agency in the City. Even with our small operation, it would be a considerable amount of work to allow public access to our accounting system.

Second, there are privacy issues. Depending on the amount of work that I do for the City, I'm not sure if I need the public knowing how much I'm paid, or other terms of my agreement.

As an employee, I sure don't appreciate my boss breathing over my shoulder every second of the day and I sure as hell wouldn't appreciate 742,000 people scrutinizing my work. Can't see this type of thing having any other effect than devastating staff morale.

@GGF you have not provided any reason for this type of system other than general comments and insinuations of corruption. I beleive that the term witch hunt comes to mind.

Freeman wrote:

Mantha wrote:

Deank wrote:well much like Access to information and human rights cases I can see some people being complete dumbasses and costing us millions of dollars in their quests to find out about 3 cents.

Ah! Dean beat me to it, and said it better than I did.

Thats because he's Dean and you're not.

Exactly...umm wait.. was that a compliment????

If you want, take it that way.

Hey Freeman...Your missing the point...

1st...I wasn't aware you were an accountant and thank you for your disclosure(s) and now that I know that I will simply say the following in response to your first issue...Your small operation and the accounting required for your smaller operation is way different then a larger government(s)...and the difference is as follows...Governments already have the accounting systems in place required and once again the public does not have access to it...

2nd...The B.S about privacy of what an employee makes in the government sector is just that...B.S...
a) The information is available already...and in many different ways...contract negotiations and job positions, job requirements and also every government employee is a "Union Represented Employee" with negotiated wages, benefits etc and it is already public for those who want to see it...Myself...I don't personally care one way or the other how much one does over the other etc...My issue or point isn't about that at all...So...

b) "Personal Privacy" issues within governments can be solved as follows and actually already are...Every employee is given a secure "Pin #" with their personal information the public cannot access...The name of the individual makes absolutely no difference for the purpose of my message...It's the numbers with a salary attached for that employee etc that do...Who's who, is who cares who's who....Nobody for this purpose...and that employee truly does have the right to his or her privacy...I am a passionate defender of that...What I would like to have or the public to have is access to departmental heads data base with all the employees pin #'s with salaries and all the various debits and credits within that department and not specifically in my hand every other day which would be crazy...I don't even want it every week or month.....Every six months or once a year posted on-line "only" would serve the purpose...

3rd...Freeman you said... @GGF you have not provided any reason for this type of system other
than general comments and insinuations of corruption. I beleive that
the term witch hunt comes to mind.

GGF says to Freeman...I have...Making governments accountable to the tax paying public/voter and your comment of insinuations of corruption is the very reason I can see why you made it because you are working in the system and this is not about corruption specifically but if there is it will uncover it for the tax paying public which is a good thing and maybe not so much for those working in the system...

But at the end of the day the tax paying public are truly the one and only employer to the public servant...Period

And finally...Because you are an accountant...You understand this...If you follow the money then you can follow what has happened with the money and also in that department etc...and the juice is always in smaller #'s...because combined they do add up to a much bigger number...and this is about making governments "Accountable" to the tax paying public...

And for governments to truly become "Accountable to the tax paying public/voter" and in order to do so the Public has to be allowed to see the smaller numbers that do grow quickly and instead of the "large final #" that is available now...and I do have more on this subject matter but will stop here for now...GGF

Firstly, just because I don't agree with you does not mean I am missing the point.

I never said I was an accountant, but that I do the accounting for a local charity. The term accountant is reserved for those with a designation, such as CA, CMA, CGA.

1) While my system is small in scale, it is not unlike those used in larger operations and making the info accessible to a wide range of users is not practical. Gvoernment has the system in place, yes, but not to allow access as you describe.

2) Privacy is not bull sh1t, it is real. Under the Public Sector Compensation Disclosure Act, annual payment in excess above $50,000 is public information, and the City of Winnipeg has that report on line. Anyone can access collective agreements, departmental spending totals, etc, but the amounts paid to employees is confidential, save for what the legislation provides. Your system of an assigned employee number does nothing as you still don't have full disclosure. Why not just give an employee different numbers and who would know the difference? Afterall, if we don't trust them, who says they are not capable of such actions?

It is you that is making insinuations of corruption, not me.

I know how accounting works, so please don't lecture. I just don't agree that what you are advocating is practical or even necessary. You have provided no specific cases or examples of how it would be beneficial.

Ok...I agree on your first 2 statements...

You and I agree on most of (1) except that is where I would change it to have the public access to it...

(2) And you said ...Under the Public Sector Compensation Disclosure Act, annual payment in
excess above $50,000 is public information, and the City of Winnipeg
has that report on line.

GGF says...I would change that by eliminating several 000's at the end of the 5 period...Because that is where a lot can go astray if multiplied over and over several times and then several times over that...

And in regards to your other points about someone being capable of such actions to break in and find info they aren't suppose to like personal info...IT IS BS...There are countless of ways to scramble that info...Hell it has been around for a while now and used in "Security" in governments right now and the US are the best at it if Wpg needs to learn how to do or use it if we are talking about Wpg which I am not specifically but you are which makes it a bit interesting in itself...

And sorry but you are truly missing the point...Which is about making all governments "Accountable" to the tax paying public...

So please...It is you that is making insinuations of corruption, not me..

And please stop continuing to make it sound like it is me unless you work within the system and perhaps Wpg and you may or may not have something to hide like perhaps corruption...Period...GGF

Okay. He said period. That's it then. End of discussion...

GGF

Mayor Sammy as you like to refer to him has put forward alot more initiatives for accountability then any other mayor in the history of winnipeg.

has he had some dealing that more information would be nice on? no doubt. can there be a little bit better accountability? again no doubt. But having every single penny reviewable by you at all times is pretty pointless and pretty expensive AND could actually cause problems
ALL information is accessible via the freedom of information act. Please start using it, NOTE however that there may be a cost to you associated with your requests.

GGF wrote:And please stop continuing to make it sound like it is me unless you work within the system and perhaps Wpg and you may or may not have something to hide like perhaps corruption...Period...GGF

Now, if that line isn't an insinuation of corruption, then what is. I have nothing to hide, but your little cheap shot tries to make it like I do.

I get your point (see other thread about me being above average), I just don't agree with it.

Period, comma, exclamation point, and semi:colon

Don't be overdoing it Freeman. Besides, you broke the rules. That's supposed to be the end of the debate. I think I'm supposed to lock this thread now. I'm so confused...

Deank wrote:But having every single penny reviewable by you at all times is pretty pointless and pretty expensive AND could actually cause problems

And besides, thats really DeanK's job.