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the winnipeg sandbox » winnipeg sandbox.. » local... » City, province refill funding pot for downtown housing

City, province refill funding pot for downtown housing

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grumpy old man

grumpy old man
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By ROSS ROMANIUK, WINNIPEG SUN

It’s more cash to kickstart downtown living.

The city and provincial government are jointly offering a total of up to $20 million to developers who construct downtown housing, in a continuation of a program that began a year ago. As most of a $20-million funding pot offered in April 2010 through the downtown residential development grant program for three years is “on the verge of being committed,” according to the province, the two governments are putting up the same amount again for the next three years.

The offer will allow developers to acquire grants funded by incremental property tax revenue for a maximum of 15 years at downtown Winnipeg sites they build on.

“The plan is working,” Mayor Sam Katz said Friday while announcing the extension in Portage Avenue’s long-vacant and dilapidated Avenue Building, which is undergoing a redevelopment to create residential units.

“We want to make sure downtown basically goes back to the way it was when I was growing up — to be vibrant, to be exciting, to have the sidewalks so full of people that you can’t see the storefronts,” the mayor added. “For people not only to be safe, but to feel safe.”

At least 10% of the residential units developed through the program — which is cost-shared equally by the province and city — will be allocated for low-income tenants or owners, and for the disabled.

Provincial Housing and Community Development Minister Kerri Irvin-Ross said the program’s initial offering has generated 741 homes, including condominiums and apartments of various rent levels.

“We’re making sure we’re providing housing for all Manitobans,” she said.

The 741 homes, said Katz, amounts to about 1,200 downtown residents.

Stefano Grande, executive director of the Downtown Winnipeg BIZ, called the grant program the “most significant tool created to stimulate the sustained development” of affordable residences in the district in decades.

The city’s $10-million share of the extended funds has yet to be approved by council.

http://www.winnipegsun.com/news/winnipeg/2011/04/15/18014641.html

grumpy old man

grumpy old man
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This is good. We have to keep finding way's to spur residential housing in the downtown. As they say, every little bit...

Guest

Anonymous
Guest

It's very important to reduce the costs of those luxury condos to make them more affordable eh.

Students and regular folks are finding it a bit difficult to afford the $350K required.

It's extremely important to subsidize those developments.

Deank

Deank
contributor eminence
contributor eminence

yeah.. but .... 10% are low income!!!!

meh. 25% and I would be happy. but i guess paying "rich" people to live downtown works.

grumpy old man

grumpy old man
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administrator

Quite the leap to get to "paying rich people" to live downtown. For fricks sake no one even knows what will be developed.

Let's assume you're right. How've we been doing on the downtown housing development without such investment? Further, why must we continually pander to special interest groups?

Guest

Anonymous
Guest

Actually, "we've" been doing very well. Condos @ $350K sell out very quickly.

Hence, the need for subsidization is a joke. It's give-away-to-your-friends money...nothing more.

Outsider

Outsider
contributor plus
contributor plus

Can someone explain to us (or at least me) how this tax increment financing thing actually works in real life?
Especially the tax part. IE: are they paying no taxes and for how long or what.
Thanks.

grumpy old man

grumpy old man
administrator
administrator

How much are the units in the Avenue building going for?
Spoiler:
How much will the units in the new Qualico Exchange District development be going for?
Spoiler:
But hey, lets not let the facts get in the way of a great indignant rant shall we...



Last edited by grumpy old man on Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:19 pm; edited 1 time in total

grumpy old man

grumpy old man
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administrator

JTF wrote:Actually, "we've" been doing very well. Condos @ $350K sell out very quickly.

Hence, the need for subsidization is a joke. It's give-away-to-your-friends money...nothing more.
Beg to differ. The downtown has been starving for residential development. Smart investor's were finding it easier to invest and get a decent return on their money elsewhere. Other than a few small core-area apartment blocks and a few high-end condos on the waterfront there has been precious little residential construction downtown.

Jondo

Jondo
major-contributor
major-contributor

At some point, the core of Winnipeg will be reclaimed and embraced by all as our place to be and enjoy. It will come to define Winnipeg - not the suburbs as it is presently. New York City would be Detroit if they didn't do the same back in the 60's. NYC is defined by its core. Those flatstone units (narrow 3 story row structures) downtown go for millions - and modest apartments go for $7k/month - with a waiting list.

What stands in our way is the downtown criminal element. NYC and Miami Beach for example, took proactive steps to rid their downtowns of this same issue. Now there are suburban parts of those cities such as Brooklyn that you wanted want to visit day or night - but downtown is not their roost. This last 10 years of trying to pretend we can do the same without actually addressing the elephant in the room (like they did) has made it a fruitless exercise. It has to be a promoted, proactive, focussed program that first deals with that issue. The "Love Me, Love My Winnipeg" campaign didn't quite do that. We came close with Chief Cassel's beat-cop initiative but it was not intensive enough.

For those that say - we can't just move the problem to another area - yes we can. That's the starting point. And by dealing with life-style criminality in general. Our problem is not an enigma - it's one of avoidance. We have a new gov't on the horizon so there's hope for this over-due reality-check.

Guest

Anonymous
Guest

Gom.

Seems to me that everything that gets built gets sold immediately or damn close to it.

Regarding the subsidies, the developers are spoiled and have backed the city into a corner. They have suckered the city into giving them these unnecessary monies and the city conforms to their wishes.

Building would continue without them.

Deank

Deank
contributor eminence
contributor eminence

I believe the momentum is there as well.

grumpy old man

grumpy old man
administrator
administrator

JTF wrote:Seems to me that everything that gets built gets sold immediately or damn close to it.
That's not the case I'm afraid jtf. Especially in the Waterfront area.

Until recently not enough choice was being made available to suit lifestyles, all demographics and affordabilityness. Limited choice was/is the order of the day.

Look at all the abandoned and decaying buildings. Look at all the surface parking lots. Developers (and investors) have not been clamouring to build downtown.

Prior to the tif incentives what was being done in the area that would suggest the days of abandoned buildings and surface parking lots were behind us?

I'm hoping that these tifs create an environment where critical mass and momentum take over. And when that day comes you will see developers and investors fight over what's available. Without tax incentives.

grumpy old man

grumpy old man
administrator
administrator

Momentum is changing. I agree. Just not fast enough...

rosencrentz

rosencrentz
uber-contributor
uber-contributor

If the City is giving the developers a break on taxes, on a vacant building, then it is a brilliant way to spur a development that will bring more people into the down town area.
Surely no one would complain about that! lol
Everyone knows that it is cheaper to build brand new then to re-develop tose old buildings! That is why there is more building new.

http://www.elansofas.com

Jondo

Jondo
major-contributor
major-contributor

One of the big issues is that they
"allow" people or corps. to buy these Heritage buildings - with a list of conditions. They're usually great selling prices but the conditions are expemsive. I know two guys that bought the Masonic Hall dowtown a few years ago for a song but they had City Inspectors watching over their $2m upgrade - mostly to the facade. They did that. That was 10 years ago and the building still awaits a tenant. I believe the only thing that stands in the way of being a jackpot location for somebody is the fact that it continues to be in the middle of an area where an elephant continues to be ignored (the low-life criminal element). Thisn is a great example of how the cart cannot travel before the horse.

Outsider

Outsider
contributor plus
contributor plus

grumpy old man wrote:
I'm hoping that these tifs create an environment where critical mass and momentum take over. And when that day comes you will see developers and investors fight over what's available. Without tax incentives.
IMO the only thing happening is:
1. Developers sit on hands waiting for a tax-payer funded incentives.
2. Governments announce Millions in incentives which are supposed to last for years.
3. Developers snap all the incentives within months.
4. Developers learn that if they sit on hands long enough more tax-payer funded incentives will come.
5. Go back to step 1.

Guest

Anonymous
Guest

Exactly.

grumpy old man

grumpy old man
administrator
administrator

1) Totally possible
2) Huh?
3) Huh?
4) Possibly. Not necessarily a problem with the "incentive". Likely a problem with the terms. Or most likely a problem with the politicians.

Let's take away the tifs then. Perhaps the developers do their thing anyway. Historically they haven't.

We can argue not much private development has happened downtown in the last 20 years that just might suggest your view should be reconsidered...

Don't get me wrong, developers and investors are spending money in this city. TON's of it. But precious little in our downtown.

Deank

Deank
contributor eminence
contributor eminence

Gom a 20 million fund that was supposed to last 3 years is gone in one. Seems to me the momentum is there.

grumpy old man

grumpy old man
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administrator

I have in fact suggested that. Twice.

Not following though. It is being argued the fund is not necessary. I'm suggesting that before the fund was put in place very little residential development was being done in the downtown. I'm suggesting the momentum is due in great part to the tifs.

So let's cancel that funding altogether and see if the momentum is self-sustainable. I'm suggesting it is not.

Deank

Deank
contributor eminence
contributor eminence

I suggest we stop..see where it is in 2 years (you know at the end of the original 3 years) and if developers have not stepped up. MAYBE consider it again. throwing money away that we will never have...crazy. Especially when MY taxes went up this year.

Jondo

Jondo
major-contributor
major-contributor

Residential is the same problem. In 1986 I was suckered into buying 3 condo units on Cumberland (411?) downtown. The real estate agent said this area was being revitalized and it was going to de-slummed. That's the massive two-sided, bent in the middle building that was apartments at the time and then was going condo. There were some incentives and they were cheap - about $23,000 each. The rent covered the condo fee's and mortgages. Then the real score came in. Nothing was done in the area and if you know it now - it's to be avoided. It's largely talken over by Manitoba Housing and there's always police cars in front. The park across the street is where strangers pull up and buy crack. Common knowledge to all. Except nothing is done about it. For years I felt that I had a great case to sue the agent and city for this deception. Now they're enticing me to go downtown, unchanged, by doubling the parking. We need a reality-check more than anybody really knows.

grumpy old man

grumpy old man
administrator
administrator

411 Cumberland is still condos. Many rented out for revenue. Very large immigrant population in that building. Given the area it is in the building is clean and well maintained.

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