WRHA issues all explained in one fell swoop

Who says any individual has to profit for it to be wrong? At some point, you just have to acknowledge that its WRONG. No matter how hard you try to deflect with comments like that and the irrelevant comment about unions, it just WRONG. Are willing to stick your head in the sand (or anywhere else you might find handy) until it happens again, on a bigger scale?

You know it has nothing to do with anyone profiting on a personal level. The trouble is the entire process is flawed and wrong. NO MONEY SHOULD TRADE HANDS IN THAT MANNER.

If the "freebie" was training why not just make that offer in the open?

When money changes hands in that manner it leaves way too much to suspicion and favouritism. It is a matter of integrity. Something some on here need to learn is not given but earned.

How many of you work for companies who do the same thing , if it keeps your job there would you say the same thing .

I will wait till it is proven that some one got a deal or kick back personally from this then I will agree with you . Till then it is rumor and it rates with the that .

The system has maybe profited so what is wrong other then you people may have to pay for the extra work or the training to be done next time . That comes from our taxes. After all no one got anything as of yet that they profited from , least proven .

Pavolo wrote:How many of you work for companies who do the same thing , if it keeps your job there would you say the same thing .

I will wait till it is proven that some one got a deal or kick back personally from this then I will agree with you . Till then it is rumor and it rates with the that .

The system has maybe profited so what is wrong other then you people may have to pay for the extra work or the training to be done next time . That comes from our taxes. After all no one got anything as of yet that they profited from , least proven .

What an incredibly naive comment! What happense in private industry is up to them, this is public money we're talking about. Do you really believe that these kickbacks actually resulted in a benefit to us? Why wouldn't these vendors just give their best price, net of any kickbacks? If you can't figure out the answer, there's no way to explain it to you.

Freeman wrote:Who says any individual has to profit for it to be wrong? At some point, you just have to acknowledge that its WRONG. No matter how hard you try to deflect with comments like that and the irrelevant comment about unions, it just WRONG. Are willing to stick your head in the sand (or anywhere else you might find handy) until it happens again, on a bigger scale?

No Iam not willing to join you in the condem at all cost line cause you make uniformed decision that is how the mob works . Wait till the facts come out before jumping like a fool .

Prove to me the wrong if the system was given something that made it better for you and me . That may put me on the wrong side of the mob , but not on the wrong side when the facts come out.
Freeman face the facts no one has been proven to have gotten a kick back and it is not our money that shows how little you know of the sytem .

The money or whatever come from the companies not you , suggest you learn the way it works . Before you shoot your mouth off the companies pay us not us pay them . So none of your money is involved .

How come we haven't heard from Doer yet? Hmmmmm. I smell a cover up and I hope to God the rest of voters smell the same thing.....lets kick that losers ass out of government!

If this were found to be the case in private industry, I reckon Postl would have been fired months ago.

In private industry this would not be tolerated.

JTF wrote:If this were found to be the case in private industry, I reckon Postl would have been fired months ago.

In private industry this would not be tolerated.

In private industry it might just be rewarded with a bonus using bailout money

Wow. Wow. Wow. Well stupid ole' me. Until I learn how things work I will now accept WRHA graft no matter the form it takes. I can't believe how stupid I've been thinking it is wrong for a public agency to accept graft. Even more stupid was me thinking none of that money comes out of my pocket.

Wait till the facts come out before jumping like a fool .

Brian Postl and Teresa Oswald have both admitted that the WRHA has a policy in place to accept little brown envelopes in the bidding process. Since they admit it I will assume facts in evidence.

Accepting little brown envelopes before, during or after a bid closes is graft. Graft is wrong.

Main Entry: graft Function: noun Date: 1865 : the acquisition of gain (as money) in dishonest or questionable ways ; also : illegal or unfair gain. Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary. 2009.

I guess I'm a fool.

PS For the sake of argument, and the second time I've so stated, let's accept that no one received anything personally during the last eight years of brown envelopes. Just the WRHA. It is still wrong IMO.

JTF wrote:If this were found to be the case in private industry, I reckon Postl would have been fired months ago.

In private industry this would not be tolerated.

Bullsh--

If I bid to replace the x ray machine and I give you the extra of a free years training on said Machine how the hell is that graft . Think you better read up on the subject . If I give you 2 hundred thou to accept my bid it is graft and illegal, this is not proven to happen .

Cept in the mobs mentality.

Grumpy said

Wow. Wow. Wow. Well stupid ole' me. Until I learn how things work I will now accept WRHA graft no matter the form it takes. I can't believe how stupid I've been thinking it is wrong for a public agency to accept graft. Even more stupid was me thinking none of that money comes out of my pocket.

In case you take the time to read the subject the WRHA is not paying anyone to bid on contracts and is getting the value added after the fact , we pay for the service or device whatever it is and we get something extra like training or extra parts whatever .
If this is a donation to a cause like the last MRI machine which was bought value added ( Free shipping and set up by vendor according to source ) a saving of 265 thousand of our dollers . Gee that is a good deal Me,s thinks

Grumpy when I was a shipper for a company here in Wpg I remember a sales women telling me she could get me free postal meters if I went with her company UPS! The other guys wanted $ 200.00 for them it made her sale . So to play naive is silly it goes on all the time the best deal you can get.

Pavolo wrote:

JTF wrote:If this were found to be the case in private industry, I reckon Postl would have been fired months ago.

In private industry this would not be tolerated.

Bullsh--

Sorry jim you are wrong. My Dad was a big wig in private industry and if he ever pulled the crap that government workers do he would've been fired on the spot...no union to protect his job.

I've read the stories pavolo. I know the games that are played. How about we assume some are just as friggen informed as others here are. I'd greatly appreciate that you try to give people a little credit. I've not once implied you don't know what goes on. Give others the same benefit of the doubt.

I'm in business. I've worked sales and marketing all my life. From small family owned business to the largest business of it's kind in the world. I know what goes on. So forgive me if I do not accept the practise the WRHA is practicing as kosher.

The WRHA can achieve EXACTLY the same end result by very specifically specifying exactly what they want the bidder to provide were they successful in their bid. If the WRHA wanted 1000 hours of training for their staff or spare widgets for their equipment then put it in the specification and demand all bidders meet the specification to the letter. Why do games have to be played after the bid closes to get the same end result?

We are NOT talking about a shipper taking a $200 discount. We are talking about MILLION DOLLAR gifts that do very much influence people. We are not talking about a training course or spare widgets included with a bid. We are talking about brown envelope under the table deals of unsubscribed gifts (meaning the giver is not telling the givee how to spend the money).

If a bid come out in the future please do not tell me that previous brown envelope gifts don't play a role in products specified. A company that gives cash under the table is looking to influence some future bid. That is undeniable.

And as to how big business works anybody seen giving gifts under the table in the companies I worked for would have been dismissed on the spot. In my experience in business this was the way business was run. And please don't take this comment as naive. I'm aware other companies do it. We're talking about them now. It is not as rampant and endemic as some profess.

Well said GOM!!

Did I miss something? Low bid gets the job? So what is all the comments about graft? Graft is what I pay to a bid member , so she tells me what the low bid is, so I can bid lower!
Everyone wins! the girl I grafted and the company that got the lower bid!
this is how it works, and it is a win, win win situation!
What is the matter with you complainers? No common sense?
WIN, WIN, WIN ! Write that down.please.

Pav, do you actually read what is being posted before you comment? WRHA needs to buy Drug X, Drug Company provides a quote to supply Drug X, and they include a "brown envelope" to go with the bid. The "brown envelope" contains some form of kickback, which is not opened until after the bids are opened and accepted (Yeah, right).

Can you explain to me, considering you claim to have worked in many jobs in many organizations, how that is an acceptable practice? Focus on the question and think about your answer before you post. Second question, why do you feel is so necessary to defend the actions of the WRHA in this regard when it is obviously so WRONG.

Gothchic said
Sorry jim you are wrong. My Dad was a big wig in private industry and if he ever pulled the crap that government workers do he would've been fired on the spot...no union to protect his job.

That could well be true and that's fine for his business but alot of business do give value added bids. And the story so far has not said that employees are keeping this money have they . So the on the take part of the story is dead , to the best of our knowledge .

All I say is that a buyer for WRHA it is my job to get the best value for the taxpayer. This might be value added and remember all of it is for our use . I don't say that you do not know of what you speak as someone puts in my mouth, just that it is there and to say it isn't, is wrong.

Hell retail is one of the biggest users of it , so is construction they are always adding to the contract to keep the customer happy some you pay some you don't. This is not graft nor bribes it is ass kissing plain and simple .
Training is not always free any more Grumpy as we have to pay for some of our training. That is why it is given in value added bids . Ass kissing so I buy from you . Least I lose you to the guy who puts it in with his bid . Or his price is less and doe.s not include training so I give it to entice you over to me .
Once again no money changes hands

And what has this to do with the level of care we get lots more cat-scans more free drugs to give the old and poor at free clinics . Who do you think pays for the blood pressure clinics at the mall alot of times the drug companies , not you and me . Also not all of the value added is brown envelopes which all of you are only seeing .
O and bids are opened by the purchasers not Brian Postil , if and when you prove beyond a doubt he took bribes or kick backs I will lead the charge to see him fired but not till it is proven , Sorry I give people more of a chance then the mob doe's . I never would have made it at a witch hunt .

Where did I say training was free?

Where did I say Postl himself opened the envelopes?

I guess I'm part of this mob you frequently mentioned. Ever think that maybe this mob is right?

Listen, here is what I'm saying: include the value add in the bid. Not in the form of cash in a brown envelope.

And in the interests of transparency and fairness only bid on what was specified. Nothing more. Then the bids can be evaluated on merit only.

You also keep harping on all the good stuff that comes of these brown envelopes. If WRHA suppliers wish to be philanthropists what say they make these donations out in the open with no strings attached. And not attached to any bid.

This smells like Schbreiber and Airbus.

I can't believe that anyone can defend this practice.

Value added does not mean a "brown envelope", it includes something integral to what is being supplied, eg exteneded warranty, installation provided in the cost, training for up to 6 months, on line support, etc. If you believe for one second that including a "brown envelope" is value added, you are sadly mistaken. You're taking the approach that the ends justifies the means, that with all these great kickbacks, WRHA can provide additional services. Is that the way its supposed to work? Don't plan out what services are needed, but what can be paid for through kickbacks. My God, no wonder our healthcare is fucked up.

Who coined the phrase "value added"?

A kick-back is a kick-back.

Just like Tazer International making up the term "excited delerium".

so am I still the only one who has a problem with the fact that the WRHA has people supplying them joints on a contractual basis?

Sounds like your on a which hunt deenK.

Deank wrote:so am I still the only one who has a problem with the fact that the WRHA has people supplying them joints on a contractual basis?

I think you have more of a problem that you can't get your joints on a contractual basis .