Church

libermom wrote:

Goth_chic wrote:No one says they should live like they are poor....

Libermom, in order to become a member of Springs do you have to give something every month or not?

No you don't.

Are you a member of the Springs church? Or were you a past member?

I hear a different story when I speak to a co-worker who is a long time current member of the Springs church.

LivingDead wrote:

libermom wrote:

Triniman wrote:Isn't there something about it being easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man? Why does Leon live in a huge house? Wouldn't he be better to live more modestly and give some more of his excess wealth to the poor?

What would Christ do?

You have no idea how much he contributes to the poor. And why this idea that christains hvae to live like they are poor? I've never understood that attitude.

There is nothing wrong with being wealthy, it only becomes a problem when you worship your wealth and possessions over God. Exploiting others for one's gain is also not good.

Leon lives in a huge house, and he has a second huge house in BC. How does he afford this? I guess the 200k salary he receives from his church pays for this. How can his church afford this?

I have spoke to a member of his church and here is how the scam goes.
members who net less than $50k a year must pay 10% gross to the church and donate a certain amount of their time working for the church (which is not paid). Members who gross more than 50K a year must pay 20% gross, of their yearly income to the church, and donate some time working for the church.

The more you give to the church, the more god loves you. (this is their belief)

I have never heard of this. We net more than 50k and we have never been approached or asked, or demanded that we give 20% in tithes. Every church I have attended does hope that it members do tithe 10% but its not mandatory. Personally I do believe that if you deceide to make a particular your home church that you should tithe. How else are the bills going to paid? How is the pastor going to be paid. My step-dad pastored a church where people thought titheing was optional and there were some months that they had no money to put food on the table. As for volunteering that is optional. If nobody volunteers who is going to teach sunday school etc.

So do you think Leon worships his wealth? As for his salary, do you think it is too much? What he does with his salary is his business. It is my understanding that he has other sources of income outside of the church. Maybe he manages his money wisely. The other house is in Calgary, not BC. He flies back and forth because he pastors a church in Calgary as well. I would imagine it's probably easier to live in a house than a hotel room evey week.

As for your last sentence, the more you give the more God loves you....I have never heard that spoken by anyone in the church. Most Christains do believe that, regardless of whether one goes to Springs, as I have heard this sentiment expressed in other denominations as well, that when you do give to God adn follow His rules for giving(not necessarily money) that you will be blessed. It is based on teh laws of sowing and reaping and there are scriptures to back that up. It doesn't mean God loves you less b/c you can't give as much a your neigbour.

sputnik wrote:

Triniman wrote:Isn't there something about it being easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man? Why does Leon live in a huge house? Wouldn't he be better to live more modestly and give some more of his excess wealth to the poor?

What would Christ do?

Some history behind that quote.

The "Eye Of The Needle" refers to a small entrance through a fortified city wall where supplies could get in during times of war without having to open the main gates and risk attack. In the case of a camel, in order for the camel to get through the door with a full load it had unload what it was carrying and get down on its knees and crawl through the gates to enter.

In the same way. For a rich man to enter heaven he must be willing drop what he is carrying (his personal wealth) and humble himself (on his knees).

Rich people can go to heaven. They just need to be willing to part with their material wealth and humble themselves.

Agree with most of this interpretation. I disagree with the part that the rich have to give up their wealth. It's more like their wealth can't have first place in their heart and that's part that has to be given up, the priority of it so that Christ can be first. After all is the LOVE of money that is the root of evil, not the money itself

LivingDead wrote:

libermom wrote:

Goth_chic wrote:No one says they should live like they are poor....

Libermom, in order to become a member of Springs do you have to give something every month or not?

No you don't.

Are you a member of the Springs church? Or were you a past member?

I hear a different story when I speak to a co-worker who is a long time current member of the Springs church.

I am currently a member and have been attending for 5 years. My husband and two older children volunteer not b/c it's expected but b/c they want to. It is common in churches to expect that the members will volunteer and contribute to the church. Maybe you confusing expectation with demanding that it be done and members have no choice in the matter.

I personally think $200 k is too much for a pastor or priest or minister to make. Where does this money come from?

I have heard mixed things regarding Springs....I have known quite a few who attend or attended and it seems almost like a cult, at least from what I've been told. I plan on checking it out for myself and see what I find.

I find Springs website to be lacking. It doesn't really tell you anything. What is their faith statement?

libermom wrote:

LivingDead wrote:

libermom wrote:

Goth_chic wrote:No one says they should live like they are poor....

Libermom, in order to become a member of Springs do you have to give something every month or not?

No you don't.

Are you a member of the Springs church? Or were you a past member?

I hear a different story when I speak to a co-worker who is a long time current member of the Springs church.

I am currently a member and have been attending for 5 years. My husband and two older children volunteer not b/c it's expected but b/c they want to. It is common in churches to expect that the members will volunteer and contribute to the church. Maybe you confusing expectation with demanding that it be done and members have no choice in the matter.

I am not confusing anything. I am not a member of Springs church, my co-worker is. I can only form opinions based on what information he tells me and from other sources. I can now add you to that list. And so far, on the contrary, I have heard more info along the lines of which my co-worker speaks.

I thank you for your position on this subject, but for now my opinion remains the same.

libermom wrote:The other house is in Calgary, not BC. He flies back and forth because he pastors a church in Calgary as well. I would imagine it's probably easier to live in a house than a hotel room evey week.

The house he bought in Calgary is assessed at over $1.5 million.

sputnik wrote:

libermom wrote:The other house is in Calgary, not BC. He flies back and forth because he pastors a church in Calgary as well. I would imagine it's probably easier to live in a house than a hotel room evey week.

The house he bought in Calgary is assessed at over $1.5 million.

Yikes...I guess being a minister or pastor pays well...who knew?

Goth_chic wrote:

sputnik wrote:

libermom wrote:The other house is in Calgary, not BC. He flies back and forth because he pastors a church in Calgary as well. I would imagine it's probably easier to live in a house than a hotel room evey week.

The house he bought in Calgary is assessed at over $1.5 million.

Yikes...I guess being a minister or pastor pays well...who knew?

Especially considering he also has a million dollar plus home in Winnipeg as well.

When you dupe your followers out of millions its easy to live high off the hog.

sputnik wrote:

Goth_chic wrote:

sputnik wrote:

libermom wrote:The other house is in Calgary, not BC. He flies back and forth because he pastors a church in Calgary as well. I would imagine it's probably easier to live in a house than a hotel room evey week.

The house he bought in Calgary is assessed at over $1.5 million.

Yikes...I guess being a minister or pastor pays well...who knew?

Especially considering he also has a million dollar plus home in Winnipeg as well.

When you dupe your followers out of millions its easy to live high off the hog.

And you know for a fact this is what he does. He has been asked to run the Miracle Channel. I'm sure that would be a paid position. Maybe he knows how to invest his money wisely so that now he can buy expensive homes. He hasn't always lived in expensive houses you know.

I was looking at Saint benedicts Table and it seems like a cool place....I like the idea of 7:00 pm service and they offer childcare. We may go and check it out.

Goth_chic wrote:

sputnik wrote:

libermom wrote:The other house is in Calgary, not BC. He flies back and forth because he pastors a church in Calgary as well. I would imagine it's probably easier to live in a house than a hotel room evey week.

The house he bought in Calgary is assessed at over $1.5 million.

Yikes...I guess being a minister or pastor pays well...who knew?

Depends on how big your church is. The bigger the church, the bigger the responibility, the bigger the salary. Most churches aren't that big to afford a salary that large.

Goth_chic wrote:I was looking at Saint benedicts Table and it seems like a cool place....I like the idea of 7:00 pm service and they offer childcare. We may go and check it out.

I have friends who go there. They really like it.

A family member goes to St. Aiden's and they really like it there.

libermom wrote:

Goth_chic wrote:I was looking at Saint benedicts Table and it seems like a cool place....I like the idea of 7:00 pm service and they offer childcare. We may go and check it out.

I have friends who go there. They really like it.

A family member goes to St. Aiden's and they really like it there.

st. benedict's table is more on the liberal side of Anglicanism

St. Aidan's is one of the more conservative Anglican parishes in the city.

Goth_chic wrote:

sputnik wrote:

libermom wrote:The other house is in Calgary, not BC. He flies back and forth because he pastors a church in Calgary as well. I would imagine it's probably easier to live in a house than a hotel room evey week.

The house he bought in Calgary is assessed at over $1.5 million.

Yikes...I guess being a minister or pastor pays well...who knew?

anyone who knows who these people are knows.

libermom wrote: He flies back and forth because he pastors a church in Calgary as well. I would imagine it's probably easier to live in a house than a hotel room evey week.

I find that surprising. In a congregation as big as Springs that there isn't enough for him to do? If he is pastoring a church in Clagary, how can he devote his energies to this parish? And if he earns over $200,000, why does he earn that if it is essentially a part time gig?

libermom wrote:

Goth_chic wrote:

sputnik wrote:

libermom wrote:The other house is in Calgary, not BC. He flies back and forth because he pastors a church in Calgary as well. I would imagine it's probably easier to live in a house than a hotel room evey week.

The house he bought in Calgary is assessed at over $1.5 million.

Yikes...I guess being a minister or pastor pays well...who knew?

Depends on how big your church is. The bigger the church, the bigger the responibility, the bigger the salary. Most churches aren't that big to afford a salary that large.

Garbage.

I went to a church in Calgary that had 2500-3000 people every weekend. The lead pastor lives in a house smaller than mine and drives a Toyota.

I also know how much he makes on a yearly basis because the salaries and benefits of all staff are made public to the entire membership of the church. The members giving have every right to know where EVERY PENNY of their giving is going.

Try asking for that information from Springs.

St Norberter wrote:

libermom wrote:

Goth_chic wrote:I was looking at Saint benedicts Table and it seems like a cool place....I like the idea of 7:00 pm service and they offer childcare. We may go and check it out.

I have friends who go there. They really like it.

A family member goes to St. Aiden's and they really like it there.

st. benedict's table is more on the liberal side of Anglicanism.

I also think they only loosely follow the Anglican church too.

They are an "emergent church" who are looking to use older church tradition as well as shed the notion of denominations within the church.

A great book to read if you want a sense of their belief system is Generous Orthodoxy by Brian McLaren.

People are free to attend whatever church they want.

Big. small, regular. They are also free to care or not care about where the money goes.

Deank wrote:People are free to attend whatever church they want.

Big. small, regular. They are also free to care or not care about where the money goes.

True.

However with those with little or no church experience people should be aware as to what is normal in a church environment and what can be reasons for concern.

This thread can hopefully enlighten those that might not know any better.

sputnik wrote:

libermom wrote:

Goth_chic wrote:

sputnik wrote:

libermom wrote:The other house is in Calgary, not BC. He flies back and forth because he pastors a church in Calgary as well. I would imagine it's probably easier to live in a house than a hotel room evey week.

The house he bought in Calgary is assessed at over $1.5 million.

Yikes...I guess being a minister or pastor pays well...who knew?

Depends on how big your church is. The bigger the church, the bigger the responibility, the bigger the salary. Most churches aren't that big to afford a salary that large.

Garbage.

I went to a church in Calgary that had 2500-3000 people every weekend. The lead pastor lives in a house smaller than mine and drives a Toyota.

I also know how much he makes on a yearly basis because the salaries and benefits of all staff are made public to the entire membership of the church. The members giving have every right to know where EVERY PENNY of their giving is going.

Try asking for that information from Springs.

You are right, members do have a right to know where their money is going. So you actually saw Leon's salary did you? As for the other pastor, just b/c he lives in a small house it doesn't mean that he isn't paid well. Warren Buffet lives in a modest house, he just invests his money elsewhere. Myself, personally, I decided years ago not to expect the pastors have to live poor, modestly, or wealthy. If laws are not being broken, etc, the members aren't complaining,etc it's up to individual people to live how the see fit. If it's ever found out that Leon has not lived above reproach well then he has alot to answer for. In the meantime I will give him the benfit of the doubt until there is proof otherwise and not just rumors. I think most people think that pastors aren't supposed to show wealth b/c if they do, they must be doing something underhanded. Of course I think in general most of society has a problem with people showing off their wealth, be they Christian or not.

libermom wrote:

sputnik wrote:

libermom wrote:

Goth_chic wrote:

sputnik wrote:

libermom wrote:The other house is in Calgary, not BC. He flies back and forth because he pastors a church in Calgary as well. I would imagine it's probably easier to live in a house than a hotel room evey week.

The house he bought in Calgary is assessed at over $1.5 million.

Yikes...I guess being a minister or pastor pays well...who knew?

Depends on how big your church is. The bigger the church, the bigger the responibility, the bigger the salary. Most churches aren't that big to afford a salary that large.

Garbage.

I went to a church in Calgary that had 2500-3000 people every weekend. The lead pastor lives in a house smaller than mine and drives a Toyota.

I also know how much he makes on a yearly basis because the salaries and benefits of all staff are made public to the entire membership of the church. The members giving have every right to know where EVERY PENNY of their giving is going.

Try asking for that information from Springs.

You are right, members do have a right to know where their money is going. So you actually saw Leon's salary did you? As for the other pastor, just b/c he lives in a small house it doesn't mean that he isn't paid well. Warren Buffet lives in a modest house, he just invests his money elsewhere. Myself, personally, I decided years ago not to expect the pastors have to live poor, modestly, or wealthy. If laws are not being broken, etc, the members aren't complaining,etc it's up to individual people to live how the see fit. If it's ever found out that Leon has not lived above reproach well then he has alot to answer for. In the meantime I will give him the benfit of the doubt until there is proof otherwise and not just rumors. I think most people think that pastors aren't supposed to show wealth b/c if they do, they must be doing something underhanded. Of course I think in general most of society has a problem with people showing off their wealth, be they Christian or not.

I know what my former pastor makes.

Including what he gets in terms of his car allowance and educational allowance.

Every dollar given to the church is detailed in the annual report each year and handed to all members.

Try getting a detailed financial report from Spring Canada Inc and you will be shown the door.

sputnik wrote:

St Norberter wrote:

libermom wrote:

Goth_chic wrote:I was looking at Saint benedicts Table and it seems like a cool place....I like the idea of 7:00 pm service and they offer childcare. We may go and check it out.

I have friends who go there. They really like it.

A family member goes to St. Aiden's and they really like it there.

st. benedict's table is more on the liberal side of Anglicanism.

I also think they only loosely follow the Anglican church too.

They are an "emergent church" who are looking to use older church tradition as well as shed the notion of denominations within the church.

A great book to read if you want a sense of their belief system is Generous Orthodoxy by Brian McLaren.

They are probably a little more tied to the anglican church than you think.

While they may only loosely follow the tradition or orthodoxy, Unless things have changed in the last couple of years, from an administrative perspective, they are 100% Anglican.

sputnik wrote:

Deank wrote:People are free to attend whatever church they want.

Big. small, regular. They are also free to care or not care about where the money goes.

True.

However with those with little or no church experience people should be aware as to what is normal in a church environment and what can be reasons for concern.

This thread can hopefully enlighten those that might not know any better.

I grew up in church. Attended different denominations. Walked away from church for awile because of perceived hypocrisy. Conclusion...there are no perfect churches because they are filled with imperfect people. You have to choose not to be offended by the silliness of people and recognize that they are also on a journey and haven't arrived yet either.

sputnik wrote:

libermom wrote:

sputnik wrote:

libermom wrote:

Goth_chic wrote:

sputnik wrote:

libermom wrote:The other house is in Calgary, not BC. He flies back and forth because he pastors a church in Calgary as well. I would imagine it's probably easier to live in a house than a hotel room evey week.

The house he bought in Calgary is assessed at over $1.5 million.

Yikes...I guess being a minister or pastor pays well...who knew?

Depends on how big your church is. The bigger the church, the bigger the responibility, the bigger the salary. Most churches aren't that big to afford a salary that large.

Garbage.

I went to a church in Calgary that had 2500-3000 people every weekend. The lead pastor lives in a house smaller than mine and drives a Toyota.

I also know how much he makes on a yearly basis because the salaries and benefits of all staff are made public to the entire membership of the church. The members giving have every right to know where EVERY PENNY of their giving is going.

Try asking for that information from Springs.

You are right, members do have a right to know where their money is going. So you actually saw Leon's salary did you? As for the other pastor, just b/c he lives in a small house it doesn't mean that he isn't paid well. Warren Buffet lives in a modest house, he just invests his money elsewhere. Myself, personally, I decided years ago not to expect the pastors have to live poor, modestly, or wealthy. If laws are not being broken, etc, the members aren't complaining,etc it's up to individual people to live how the see fit. If it's ever found out that Leon has not lived above reproach well then he has alot to answer for. In the meantime I will give him the benfit of the doubt until there is proof otherwise and not just rumors. I think most people think that pastors aren't supposed to show wealth b/c if they do, they must be doing something underhanded. Of course I think in general most of society has a problem with people showing off their wealth, be they Christian or not.

I know what my former pastor makes.

Including what he gets in terms of his car allowance and educational allowance.

Every dollar given to the church is detailed in the annual report each year and handed to all members.

Try getting a detailed financial report from Spring Canada Inc and you will be shown the door.

Bottom line for me,... is not that I don't care to know, it's more of a non-issue for me. I don't begrudge the man what he makes or how he lives. In the end he is accountable for his actions, not me.