Islam For Dummies

Try to keep this one civil folks. We really don't want a repeat of the last time do we?

Yes we do.

No we don't.

We do.

We don't.

This is the problem with debates about religion. Hard to believe those that claim to be religious resort to name calling and inflammatory comments...

She was also assassinated because she was a woman.....and the terrorists thought of her as "American" because she was educated in the USA. Sorry HA too many blackmarks against that religion. Too many negatives and not enough positives. If muslims truly believed men and women were equal then why do the muslim countries still treat women as second class citizens?

Goth_chic wrote:Women are not necessarily better at raising children or maintaining a household. My husband is an amazing father and spends just as much, if not more time with the kids then I do. He also does well at cleaning, laundry etc. I am the better cook but I also enjoy cooking more. Growing up, my Dad did the majority of the cooking....my Dad also changed our diapers, fed us, bathed us etc. You sound like a caveman.

I am caveman. At least in the bedroom.....

Well I feel sorry for any woman who dates you then.

Goth_chic wrote: If muslims truly believed men and women were equal then why do the muslim countries still treat women as second class citizens?

Why do women only make 70% of the income men make in Canada? It's just the way it is...

Compare apples to apples. Pick specific fields and compare them. A blanket comparison will only create friction.

HurtinAlbertan wrote:

Goth_chic wrote: If muslims truly believed men and women were equal then why do the muslim countries still treat women as second class citizens?

Why do women only make 70% of the income men make in Canada?

Why aren't muslim women in muslim countries allowed to drive? Why aren't they allowed to go outside of their prison without a male escort? Why aren't they allowed to dress the way they would like? Why are they blamed and persecuted if they are raped?

As for women making less money then men that is an issue but women in Canada are way better off then women in Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Malaysia, etc etc.

It takes TWO PARENTS to raise a child. Oh my but you have so much to learn about your new ventures and about women, even Muslim women and the BS that they have to deal with because of outdated notions as to gender roles. If women are so equal in Islam then why is it under Sharia that the testimony of a woman is worth half of that of a man? I could cite several examples of imbalance and inequality in Sharia.......I think you need to do some research.....

A good start would be going to the website for RAWA.....the revolutionary Afghan Women's group......read as to how women and girls in that country are faring post-Taliban......I thought the Wahhabists from SA were bad but the Taliban are so friggin backwards they make the Mutaawa of SA look positively progressive. BTW i have liaised with Saudi religious scholars who could not even look me in the eye because of my gender....now what kind of stupidity is that? This putting the blame on women that we tempt men and therefor must be secreted away or covered up or shut up because even our voices are alluring and distracting.....if men would only learn to keep it in their pants then maybe the lives of women and girls would be better?

HA I have traveled, lived and worked in Muslim/and other countries....in other words I have been to more places than you have and you may wish to keep that in mind before extolling the virtues of any religion when it comes to the quality of life issues for women and girls.

Goth_chic wrote:

Why aren't muslim women in muslim countries allowed to drive? Why aren't they allowed to go outside of their prison without a male escort? Why aren't they allowed to dress the way they would like? Why are they blamed and persecuted if they are raped?

.

http://www.submission.org/women/mis.html

Myth: Muslim women are not allowed to drive:

Again this is not Islamic law but rather a local tradition in some of these so called "Islamic" countries. Quran has no restriction on the women moving freely in the society, whether this includes riding a horse, driving a car or flying an aeroplane. Local laws that require the women to be accompanied by a male relative whenever they travel are traditional laws that have NO basis in the Quran.


Myth: For a woman to prove rape, four adult males of "impeccable" character must witness the incident

This a gross misunderstanding of this law. Like any civil law in the civilized world, Quran urges a proof beyond doubt for such a horrendous crime. Quran accepts a proof of a crime if the proof is beyond doubt, e.g. see 12:75. Therefore although the verses of adultery which is used in cases of rape are applied, a proof beyond doubt, e.g. DNA of the offender should be an acceptable proof instead of four witnesses in these cases. Insisting on four witnesses when the other proof is beyond doubt is NOT Quranic.


Myth: Women cannot travel freely except in the company of a male relative

This is a man made fabrication that has no support in the Quran. According to the Quran, women have no limitations on their moves, travels or activities. Men who hire themsleves guards on the women's moves do this out of their own wishes not beause of any religious law in the Quran. [i]

I am not going to go around in circles again with those who are not my intellectual equals. Waste of my f*king time, I am in too much pain and I have no time to teach folks how to research, read, comprehend or even to use the brain that they own......just because something is written it does not mean it is and CONVERSELY just because a religion may preach peace and love and (some) equality that does not mean that behind closed door, or in public in many cases, that those tenets are followed or even respected.

Tribalism, sexism and misogyny rule all over this planet and right here in town I can goddamn well guarantee that a full clitoridectomy is in progress, in secret, behind closed doors and sanctioned by virtue of inaction, by the Islamic community. In severe cases of abuses, it is the silence of the so-called peaceful majority that kills.

You - HA- may wish to consider that in light of the other day's hypocrisy because I do not see that person or you for that matter going after LD or Goth for their anti-religion remarks or pointing of said hypocrisies. Be forewarned as I despise cowards and dummies.

HurtinAlbertan wrote:

Goth_chic wrote:

Why aren't muslim women in muslim countries allowed to drive? Why aren't they allowed to go outside of their prison without a male escort? Why aren't they allowed to dress the way they would like? Why are they blamed and persecuted if they are raped?

.

http://www.submission.org/women/mis.html

Myth: Muslim women are not allowed to drive:

Again this is not Islamic law but rather a local tradition in some of these so called "Islamic" countries. Quran has no restriction on the women moving freely in the society, whether this includes riding a horse, driving a car or flying an aeroplane. Local laws that require the women to be accompanied by a male relative whenever they travel are traditional laws that have NO basis in the Quran.

THEN STAND UP AND PROTEST ON BEHALF OF YOUR SISTERS WHO ARE SHACKLED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Shackled in the name of "god"......trying to extoll the virtues of your faith here does jackshit for the rights of women in oppressed places.....be like GREG MORTENSON who wrote THREE CUPS OF TEA and be proactive.......read that book......it is a beautiful, respectful and spiritual book dealing with a region of the world that is so cut off from everything yet is populated by folks who truly understand kindness and generosity and hardship!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Miz point wrote:I am not going to go around in circles again with those who are not my intellectual equals. Waste of my f*king time, I am in too much pain and I have no time to teach folks how to research, read, comprehend or even to use the brain that they own......just because something is written it does not mean it is and CONVERSELY just because a religion may preach peace and love and (some) equality that does not mean that behind closed door, or in public in many cases, that those tenets are followed or even respected.

Tribalism, sexism and misogyny rule all over this planet and right here in town I can goddamn well guarantee that a full clitoridectomy is in progress, in secret, behind closed doors and sanctioned by virtue of inaction, by the Islamic community. In severe cases of abuses, it is the silence of the so-called peaceful majority that kills.

You - HA- may wish to consider that in light of the other day's hypocrisy because I do not see that person or you for that matter going after LD or Goth for their anti-religion remarks or pointing of said hypocrisies. Be forewarned as I despise cowards and dummies.

I am very sorry you feel that way. i once again invite you to the Central Mosque to see for yourself that women are very respected in Islamic culture.

Miz point wrote:

THEN STAND UP AND PROTEST ON BEHALF OF YOUR SISTERS WHO ARE SHACKLED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Shackled in the name of "god"......

I see none of this occuring in Canada. Perhaps in some corrupt countries this does occur. However I do not believe there is any evidence of women being subject to these conditions (sanctioned by Islamicc leaders) in our great nation...

You are so naive. Sorry, but abuse against women and girls goes on in EVERY country.

HA I am sure your bible says women are equal in the eyes of god but it seems a majority of those who practice this religion have made up their owns laws.

I am bowing out of this discussion....as I see it will lead to nothing good.

I have my own personal views and opinions on this subject which I shall keep to myself.

Miz point wrote:I am not going to go around in circles again with those who are not my intellectual equals. Waste of my f*king time, I am in too much pain and I have no time to teach folks how to research, read, comprehend or even to use the brain that they own......just because something is written it does not mean it is and CONVERSELY just because a religion may preach peace and love and (some) equality that does not mean that behind closed door, or in public in many cases, that those tenets are followed or even respected.

Tribalism, sexism and misogyny rule all over this planet and right here in town I can goddamn well guarantee that a full clitoridectomy is in progress, in secret, behind closed doors and sanctioned by virtue of inaction, by the Islamic community. In severe cases of abuses, it is the silence of the so-called peaceful majority that kills.

You - HA- may wish to consider that in light of the other day's hypocrisy because I do not see that person or you for that matter going after LD or Goth for their anti-religion remarks or pointing of said hypocrisies. Be forewarned as I despise cowards and dummies.

WTF? With all due respect MizP this is completely unwarranted.

And I will continue to provide the titles of other books that are salient to this discussion. Blind faith blinds. Too bad Goth that you have to bow out as I believe that is what some wish - to silence women's voices or any voices for that matter that give a differing POV......and yes, the political cartoon example is a perfect one to share with regards to not being able to take criticism....okay for some in the Islamic community to make anti-semitic cartoons reminiscent of those in the Julius Streicher papers of the Nazi era but not okay for anyone else to question what is so obvious - why the need to turn people into bombs?

I am not an Israel-booster btw....

grumpy old man wrote:

Miz point wrote:I am not going to go around in circles again with those who are not my intellectual equals. Waste of my f*king time, I am in too much pain and I have no time to teach folks how to research, read, comprehend or even to use the brain that they own......just because something is written it does not mean it is and CONVERSELY just because a religion may preach peace and love and (some) equality that does not mean that behind closed door, or in public in many cases, that those tenets are followed or even respected.

Tribalism, sexism and misogyny rule all over this planet and right here in town I can goddamn well guarantee that a full clitoridectomy is in progress, in secret, behind closed doors and sanctioned by virtue of inaction, by the Islamic community. In severe cases of abuses, it is the silence of the so-called peaceful majority that kills.

You - HA- may wish to consider that in light of the other day's hypocrisy because I do not see that person or you for that matter going after LD or Goth for their anti-religion remarks or pointing of said hypocrisies. Be forewarned as I despise cowards and dummies.

WTF? With all due respect MizP this is completely unwarranted.

Oh it is.....IMHO.....it is......do not worry. I am not engaging that element so some of you can put the popcorn back in the cupboard.

If Islam is such a great and peaceful religion, why do so many muslims support the inhumane acts and crimes conducted by Islamic terrorists on behalf of their religion? Muslims should be first in line to condemn and destroy that scum.

HurtinAlbertan wrote: The Muslim World is changing. Al Jazeera is arguable most reputable news organization in the world. It's unbiased and democratic approach, and huge popularity with the Muslim world is shaping young minds in that area of the world, and people are learning that the best way to succeed is through knowledge and education, rather than the sword.

Funny you say that......considering how many girls are denied a decent education because of violence or lack of resources. I urge you to read THREE CUPS OF TEA......sounds to me like you really need to cross-reference instead of just relying on one source and for the record I do read Al-Jazeera's stories as I believe in said cross-referencing.

eViL tRoLl wrote:If Islam is such a great and peaceful religion, why do so many muslims support the inhumane acts and crimes conducted by Islamic terrorists on behalf of their religion? Muslims should be first in line to condemn and destroy that scum.

Hey it worked for the Jews (Stern Gang, Irgun, Haganah..). The state of Israel was created by terrorism. Saadly, the Muslim world has learned from this.

grumpy old man wrote:Try to keep this one civil folks. We really don't want a repeat of the last time do we?

Yes we do.

No we don't.

We do.

We don't.

This is the problem with debates about religion. Hard to believe those that claim to be religious resort to name calling and inflammatory comments...

Yeah, freaking ironic is it not?

HurtinAlbertan wrote:

eViL tRoLl wrote:If Islam is such a great and peaceful religion, why do so many muslims support the inhumane acts and crimes conducted by Islamic terrorists on behalf of their religion? Muslims should be first in line to condemn and destroy that scum.

Hey it worked for the Jews (Stern Gang, Irgun, Haganah..). The state of Israel was created by terrorism. Saadly, the Muslim world has learned from this.

Well, it didn't take long to bring hating the Jews into this, did it?

Now there will be the obligatory smarmy CMHR reference.

Ummm, this does not count BTW.

Yes it does.

No it doesn't.

Get off!

HurtinAlbertan wrote:

eViL tRoLl wrote:If Islam is such a great and peaceful religion, why do so many muslims support the inhumane acts and crimes conducted by Islamic terrorists on behalf of their religion? Muslims should be first in line to condemn and destroy that scum.

Hey it worked for the Jews (Stern Gang, Irgun, Haganah..). The state of Israel was created by terrorism. Saadly, the Muslim world has learned from this.

I don't see too many sabrah boys and girls going out with bombs strapped to their bodies, getting on a bus in Gaza and blowing up everyone to kingdom come.

You know what the REAL definition of JIHAD is? It is the war within oneself to strive for spiritual purity. Go ponder that one for awhile. The concept of Jihad is a highly personal one and has jackshit to do with blowing anything up let alone children or any other folks for that matter regardless of political or religious leanings!!!!!!!!!!!!!

JTF wrote:People use religion for their own purposes all the time. Muslin, Christian and Jew all have those that will take advantage of an opportunity to fcuk up others.

Those religions have to speak loudly against such people and some say, they don't do that.

Excellent post, JTF. You've hit the nail on the head. And to add to this, even in non-religious backgrounds, women have been considered unequal to men over thousands of years. It is only now that things are changing. Catholic churches now have alter-girls alongside with alter boys during masses. Many demonimations have women as pastors, priests, etc. Women are now starting to become included as equals, as it should be. No one can change the past, but I believe that acting now to help alieviate past history is a step in the right direction.