Teachers: photo radar busted

USApegger wrote:Perhaps better training for drivers? If you know you have 4 seconds at an amber you should be prepared for that

I don't drive below the speed limit and any time I approach an intersection I am well aware of how I will react.

You don't drive below the speed limit? Wow...don't let some lowlife prosecutor here that...they'll submit that as an admission of guilt and start giving you speeding tickets!!!


BUT...

Your first comment is the one that is the MOST important.

forget all the cameras, the lights, even the cops...the first and foremost problem with the whole thing, is the lack of efficient/effective training for drivers.

We require people to go to University for 8 years (minimum) in order to hand out glorified asprin as a prescription...which might raise a little blood pressure, yet we give people a license to drive a 3000 pound vehicle at 100kmh in the snow and ice, to someone who can fake their way through a 40 question test and a 30 minute drive.

Is driving difficult? There are times that it can be.
Is it life-threatening? Every time you get behind the wheel.

I hear people I know say "I can't parallel park" or "I couldn't change a tire if I had to"...well ya know what I think? Go turn your license in and take the bus!!! YOU DON'T BELONG BEHIND THE WHEEL!!!

Now don't get me wrong, people make mistakes...things happen...but I can't believe how many complete morons are out there on the roads who shouldn't be there as PEDESTRIANS...let alone behind the wheel of a car.

And I don't care how long you've had your license...rules change, standards change. Just look at the various signs that have come through the years, changes in speed limits, red light cameras...does the driver's test you took in 1959 apply today?
RETEST!!!

And it doesn't help that many of these incompetent drivers are politicians...who think making MORE useless laws, that nobody is going to follow, and nobody is going to enforce anyway, is going to help.

Like the introduction of the Red Light Scameras...which have done nothing but generate money, and MORE incidents at intersections...which they CLAIM were trying to be reduced.

Perhaps getting a driver's license should be something you actually EARN...testing, education, retesting. If it was done properly...then you could even have driver instructor "ratings", so someone with this rating can actually issue a driver's license recommendation/approval...and be held responsible if their "student" goes out and kills someone through improper training.

NOTHING with the scameras (either red-light or hidden sniper vehicles) is about true SAFETY!!! It's about stealing money from people, whether they are breaking the law or not, because they know MOST of those people are typically law-abiding, and will pay the fines to avoid the hassle. And cause they can't make money by prosecuting REAL criminals.

"Of course I have, but I am also watching the cross walk signal and when it's the red hand, you know the light will change soon."

Except they have changed that at many of the higher speed traffic locations the walk either never comes on OR ever worse the time between walk.. flashing hand.. red hand is so absurdly low you dont know what to expect

" Jondo believes that the ambers are all set at the same length of time, even though some intersections are far larger,"

That is not a belief. thats a documented reality

@ the last two posts of DeanK...

I agree...the consistency is not there.
At some intersections across Portage for example, people have time to comfortably cross all 6 lanes once the walk signal comes on...at others, they are lucky to make it to the centre median.

-- the yellow lights are NOT all the same at every intersection in the city.
Portage & Main (for example) holds a longer yellow than does Portage and Arlington.
However...it does not mean the yellow is set correctly to allow people to get through the light safely...just pointing out that not all the intersections are the same in the city.

".just pointing out that not all the intersections are the same in the city."

could have sworn it was documented that they were the same length

Deank wrote:".just pointing out that not all the intersections are the same in the city."

could have sworn it was documented that they were the same length

I recall that it was all intersections with red light cameras...

I believe that is also documented within the ACS contract with the city. Further, the city CANNOT change the amber light timing at those intersections under terms within that same contract.

For those that care ACS is owned by Xerox.

Jondo wrote:In fact that has been exposed in every jurisdiction that has adopted the Georgia precedent legislation - causing the federal USA govt' to be holding Congressional Hearings presently for the likely consideration of regulating amber times federally - like I will do when I appear before the Transport Committee in Ottawa soon. I've read your last comments and I must say - you Sir, are truly ignorant and blissfully so. That's a fine state for yourself however don't enter debates in that state because it's expected that you display an interest in the facts.

In case you were blissfully un-aware, I did not enter into any debate. I asked you a question. Which percentage does your stats fall into, and then I stated my beliefs on the subject. WiseUp Winnipeg wants me to believe what they are saying, then make me believe.

Don't tell me to research it myself, (Think about this; most people get home form work and the last thing they want to do is research facts and figures to support your argument.) Show me the reports, show me other reports and/or studies that corroborate the Georgia report/study. Just sayin'.

If the Province of Manitoba and the city of Winnipeg made every amber light 10 seconds long, would you accept red light cameras?

grumpy old man wrote:
Very disappointed in this response LD.

I'm fine with people disagreeing with a particular stance but at least debate this issue in good faith the first time.

I too have read up quite extensively on this issue. There are significant study results that support the 80% allegation.

However, speeding and running red lights is not this issue in this matter. It never has been. No one that I'm aware of that is fighting city hall is advocating that stance.

The issue is and always has been the use of fair play when deploying such "crime fighting" methods.

LD I don't believe for a second that you would sit idly by if a government bureaucracy utilized underhanded methodology in an effort to grow revenues. Why is it in this case you are okay with it?

GOM, first off, there is no debating. Been there tried that a year and a half ago with your buddy. All I got was the typical response that I was either stupid or ignorant, and a host of other personal attacks. So I posted what I did because I wanted to ask a question. my second post was to advertise my unchangeable position. I did not want to debate, why would I want to get called names for disagreeing with WISEUPWINNIPEG.

GOM, Believe it. Most Canadians sit idly by as bureaucratic government agencies use unscrupulous methods to take more of my hard earned dollars. In this situation I am ok with it because this city has a huge problem with speeders and people who like to sneak through intersections on the yellow. I am ok with it because our society seems to have lost all sense of responsibility and accountability.

You guys make such a big stink about this subject, why was this not an issue in the last election? I can tell you why the majority don't care that a small select few got tickets because the length of an amber light is one second too short. There are far bigger problems in this City, Province and Country to fix than the timing of amber lights and the use of Red Light Cameras.

Notice that I have not called anyone names for their position or thoughts on this subject.

Go Jets!

ALL Winnipeg amber times are 4.0 seconds. No other city in Canada does that. They responded to survey and 70kph are 5.0 - 80kph 5.5 seconds. That's what the ITE formula calls for as a MINIMUM safe amber time. It is not coincidence that Wpg's program has a higher instance of red-light "runners" at the higher speed zones, with most obviously in the 80kph zone. In fact there is a 600% higher instance of running in those few locations. Now, some might believe there is a red-light running club that congregates at these few locations but the rest with basic understanding of the issue know otherwise. In closing - if ambers were set to minimum plus one second (many jurusdictions adopting now, following Georgia expose) red-light "running drops to between 80 and 90% instantly. So do accidents around those intersections as a result of the elimination of the crisis delivered by the short amber.

If anybody is wondering why the city is resisting this implementation then it's pretty simple - it would expose the truth instantly. It would also expose what is known to be a typical ACS contract point - no exptending ambers while under contract. It's stunning to me that anybody could be okay with this.

And USA - chew on this for a while before you bother responding with empty rhetoric. WPS Traffic Sgt Jon Butcher was appointed by the City to engage the bids and then negotiate the contract with the upstart red-light camera photo program (that's all it was when it started). At the time, Bruce Owen of the Free Press did an interview with Sgt Butcher and asked him "what would happen if Wpg extended its amber times?". Butchers answer was - "it would ruin the photo enforcement program". That interview/quote can be found in Free Press archives Oct 30th, 2001. Following the award of the contract to ACS (despite Hewlitt Packard submitting a far superior bid), Butcher took early retirement and joined a lobby group called StopRedLightRunning to lobby cities about how there was technology available to address the red-light running epidemic that canada was suddenly experiencing (?). It was later discovered that ACS was the funder of that lobby group.

After that propaganda tour was complete - Butcher then took the position of VP of Operation of ACS Canada, where he remains, signing the other side of the Winnipeg contract. And there's lots more for people that have an actual interest in the facts.

Jondo wrote:ALL Winnipeg amber times are 4.0 seconds. No other city in Canada does that. They responded to survey and 70kph are 5.0 - 80kph 5.5 seconds. That's what the ITE formula calls for as a MINIMUM safe amber time. It is not coincidence that Wpg's program has a higher instance of red-light "runners" at the higher speed zones, with most obviously in the 80kph zone. In fact there is a 600% higher instance of running in those few locations. Now, some might believe there is a red-light running club that congregates at these few locations but the rest with basic understanding of the issue know otherwise. In closing - if ambers were set to minimum plus one second (many jurusdictions adopting now, following Georgia expose) red-light "running drops to between 80 and 90% instantly. So do accidents around those intersections as a result of the elimination of the crisis delivered by the short amber.

Please provide a link to the survey you cite.

Who says "No other city in Canada does that?"

Please provide link to ITE's formula.

Please provide a link to the Georgia Expose.

Please provide a link to the Data used to get the 600% you mention.

It is not that I don't believe you, I want to see the stats, I want to see the data, I want to read the reports that you take your snippets of information from. A wise person once told me "There are three sides to every story, your side, my side and the truth"

I thank you for the information you are about to provide me in advance.

I don't have the time for you sir. You can locate most if not all with your own minor effort - if you're interested. You will want to read the red-light running roundup at the National Motorists Association website.

Actually I found the time to get you started. It's an 11yr old Congressional Report.



http://www.motorists.org/red-light-cameras/armeyreport.pdf

LivingDead wrote: why was this not an issue in the last election?

It was a significant part of the last provincial election. As were several other, possibly, more important issues.

LivingDead wrote:So I posted what I did because I wanted to ask a question.

FWIW using a sarcastic post as a first foray into a thread is not much different than a direct insult IMO.

You may not agree with the issue but I do. Big time. This subject has been discussed in very significant detail in the sandbox with all the statistical citations posted and links provided which provide the POV of other jurisdictions that have discontinued the cameras and reseach results that show the results of a single second change.

LivingDead wrote: I can tell you why the majority don't care that a small select few got tickets because the length of an amber light is one second too short.

Just out of curiosity, what percentage do your stats fall into? The 83% that are made up on the spot, or the other 17%?

LivingDead wrote:Please provide a link to the survey you cite.

Who says "No other city in Canada does that?"

Please provide link to ITE's formula.

Please provide a link to the Georgia Expose.

Please provide a link to the Data used to get the 600% you mention.

Most of these questions have been referenced here in the sandbox. Many several times.

Refer here too: http://wiseupwinnipeg.com/

One more time:

No one is against the issuance of red light tickets.

No one is against the issuance of speeding tickets.

I am flummoxed why we can't get beyond this.

Jondo wrote:
And USA - chew on this for a while before you bother responding with empty rhetoric. WPS Traffic Sgt Jon Butcher was appointed by the City to engage the bids and then negotiate the contract with the upstart red-light camera photo program (that's all it was when it started). At the time, Bruce Owen of the Free Press did an interview with Sgt Butcher and asked him "what would happen if Wpg extended its amber times?". Butchers answer was - "it would ruin the photo enforcement program". That interview/quote can be found in Free Press archives Oct 30th, 2001. Following the award of the contract to ACS (despite Hewlitt Packard submitting a far superior bid), Butcher took early retirement and joined a lobby group called StopRedLightRunning to lobby cities about how there was technology available to address the red-light running epidemic that canada was suddenly experiencing (?). It was later discovered that ACS was the funder of that lobby group.

After that propaganda tour was complete - Butcher then took the position of VP of Operation of ACS Canada, where he remains, signing the other side of the Winnipeg contract. And there's lots more for people that have an actual interest in the facts.

Really? I give my opinion and this is how you respond? You are trying to debate and yet you insult me?

Cloutier was right about you when you were on the radio the other day (in my opinion)

You wanted the facts and you got some. And this is your response? Regarding Cloutier - he's done his best to ignore the facts over two years and I am exasperated. My next speech on this subject will be after the facts prevail at trial in February. I have no more time or patience to sell the facts to he, you or others - unless they are actually interested - and those people convert to the facts rather quickly. What is your problem?

LivingDead wrote:

Jondo wrote:ALL Winnipeg amber times are 4.0 seconds. No other city in Canada does that. They responded to survey and 70kph are 5.0 - 80kph 5.5 seconds. That's what the ITE formula calls for as a MINIMUM safe amber time. It is not coincidence that Wpg's program has a higher instance of red-light "runners" at the higher speed zones, with most obviously in the 80kph zone. In fact there is a 600% higher instance of running in those few locations. Now, some might believe there is a red-light running club that congregates at these few locations but the rest with basic understanding of the issue know otherwise. In closing - if ambers were set to minimum plus one second (many jurusdictions adopting now, following Georgia expose) red-light "running drops to between 80 and 90% instantly. So do accidents around those intersections as a result of the elimination of the crisis delivered by the short amber.

Please provide a link to the survey you cite.

Who says "No other city in Canada does that?"

Please provide link to ITE's formula.

Please provide a link to the Georgia Expose.

Please provide a link to the Data used to get the 600% you mention.

It is not that I don't believe you, I want to see the stats, I want to see the data, I want to read the reports that you take your snippets of information from. A wise person once told me "There are three sides to every story, your side, my side and the truth"

I thank you for the information you are about to provide me in advance.

You seem to have come to this debate very late. Now your actions appear to be just a bit trollish imo.

If you want to know the truth, find it out yourself....then you can say your truth is the real truth.

BTW...Clouthier is a complete a$$hole!!

Thanks for that JTF. Yes I agree on Cloutier. There are 3 of us from the group who speak and none of the others would consider doing a segment with him - that's been the case for 2 years. He goes out of his way to ignore the facts - and goes even further out of his way to not ask the obvious questions of the WPS program whn they're on with me - letting them get away with competely false statements and then getting back to calling the program a tax on the stupid. Trust me - we will win in February and Cloutier and a few other left media like him can answer to their listeners. Anyway - glad you get the global picture.

Time to lock this thread, methinks.

Why? Everyone is being civil.

Besides, we can add to it in February.

So, in the mail the other day? A ticket. For me. In this exact spot. Saying I was doing 74. Which is an utter crock of sh1t, as I had just pulled out of the Safeway parking lot, and was turning on to Grant to go up to Cambridge to go home. It's the only time I've turned onto Grant instead of going down Nathanial. There is no way I was that high over the speed limit, that fast, after just turning the corner, after a pedestrian crossed before I turned. No way in hell. Since they didn't pull me over, and disputing it in court is futile, I'm on the hook for over $300. To say I'm pissed off is an understatement. I realize that some people out there think this is justice since clearly I was driving 24K over the limit, but I know I wasn't.