The Gods look for more

Deank · 51 Re: The Gods look for more Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:44 pm

Deank

contributor eminence

Number of posts : 28509
Registration date : 2008-09-28

I have seen it for Kindergarten, grades 3, 5 and 6 just in the last year at between two different schools.

And I see more qualifications on your rules, interesting how those keep getting added on... now it cant be just before or after one of the breaks they have. Fine take the grade 5 one out... leave the other 3 in as they were not at those times.

AGEsAces · 52 Re: The Gods look for more Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:48 pm

AGEsAces

moderator

Number of posts : 6890
Registration date : 2008-09-28

Let's add to that sick days.

My wife works for the government and gets "unlimited" sick days.
At the company I work...I can take vacations "whenever" as long as I plan them.

Neither of those apply to teachers.

How poorly does it affect a class if a teacher disappears for two weeks?
How effective is a substitute teacher?

If YOU left your job for a week's vacation...does it really affect anyone but YOU? And if you're "calling in" your work...let's see a teacher "call in" the exams...or go through a school and even FIND a classroom of students without a teacher doing their job.

Do you remember being in class and having a teacher leave the room for more than a couple of minutes?

Try that in your office/employment...go to the bathroom for 15 minutes and see if it affect anyone?

If you don't "get it" about teachers...you never will...and you'll never understand the responsibilities they assume in their role.

Deank · 53 Re: The Gods look for more Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:49 pm

Deank

contributor eminence

Number of posts : 28509
Registration date : 2008-09-28

they are teachers... rules made can be broken under special circumstance. you know.. JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER PROFESSIONAL JOB ON THE PLANET

Can a lawyer take vacation in the middle of a trial? Can an accountant take vacation whilst helping his clients through an audit? Can a farmer take vacation during calving season? Can a doctor take vaction when there is no one to fill in? Can a Department store manager take vacation during the busy, christmas or back to school seasons?
Hell can most farmers ever take more then a couple of days off at a time, never mind an actual vacation of 7days or more.

holly golightly · 54 Re: The Gods look for more Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:50 pm

holly golightly

major-contributor

Number of posts : 1259
Registration date : 2008-11-01

Deank wrote:I have seen it for Kindergarten, grades 3, 5 and 6 just in the last year at between two different schools.

And I see more qualifications on your rules, interesting how those keep getting added on... now it cant be just before or after one of the breaks they have. Fine take the grade 5 one out... leave the other 3 in as they were not at those times.

What are you referring to?????? Qualifications to rules????????? Explain and maybe we can rebut.

Deank · 55 Re: The Gods look for more Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:55 pm

Deank

contributor eminence

Number of posts : 28509
Registration date : 2008-09-28

I know the responsbilities they hold as well as anyone who is not a teacher... does a single one of them understand my responsibilites?

If I left my job for more then a weeks vacation we would not meet our deadlines. No ifs and or buts we would not meet them. Is it that way for everyone in my office? no. But it is for me.
What does this mean? Well just last spring it would have meant XXX million in lost sales and potential to X.X Billion in sales could have been lost. It was a very major, very time critical project that not only has made our company some money but has started to help to increase the number of lives saved on an hourly basis.
I have actually had several occasions in my life as a school user to see where teachers leave the room for almost the whole hour, where teachers are gone on vacation for at least a week, and on extended sick leave for more then 3 months. Hell one year we actually had 5 different teachers... (3 due to stresss from one whack job student..all fresh out of university and could not handle the lunatic)

TEACHERS have it no worse then at least me.. and most likely one hell of a lot of other people.

Deank · 56 Re: The Gods look for more Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:56 pm

Deank

contributor eminence

Number of posts : 28509
Registration date : 2008-09-28

holly golightly wrote:

Deank wrote:I have seen it for Kindergarten, grades 3, 5 and 6 just in the last year at between two different schools.

And I see more qualifications on your rules, interesting how those keep getting added on... now it cant be just before or after one of the breaks they have. Fine take the grade 5 one out... leave the other 3 in as they were not at those times.

What are you referring to?????? Qualifications to rules????????? Explain and maybe we can rebut.

I am referring to the question about teachers taking vacation. and to the new rules and stipulations that St N keeps adding to the arguement

holly golightly · 57 Re: The Gods look for more Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:57 pm

holly golightly

major-contributor

Number of posts : 1259
Registration date : 2008-11-01

Deank wrote:they are teachers... rules made can be broken under special circumstance. you know.. JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER PROFESSIONAL JOB ON THE PLANET

Can a lawyer take vacation in the middle of a trial? Yes with a continuance being requested because of evidence. Can an accountant take vacation whilst helping his clients through an audit? Yes because s/he has a junior that can handle the audit proceedings. Can a farmer take vacation during calving season? Possibly if they have a reliable ranch hand manager. Can a doctor take vaction when there is no one to fill in? Yes they can close the office for a few days/weeks and direct patients to emergency. Can a Department store manager take vacation during the busy, christmas or back to school seasons? Yes as they have assistant managers to handle the position while the Manager is away.
Hell can most farmers ever take more then a couple of days off at a time, never mind an actual vacation of 7days or more.

Deank · 58 Re: The Gods look for more Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:58 pm

Deank

contributor eminence

Number of posts : 28509
Registration date : 2008-09-28

Oh so you have been in everyone of those positions you know so well that is possible?
For the record... very very very few farmers have ranch hands.

holly golightly · 59 Re: The Gods look for more Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:02 pm

holly golightly

major-contributor

Number of posts : 1259
Registration date : 2008-11-01

No I have not but I have many friends in these different positions who have done what you say can't be done. The only one I don't have knowledge of in today's society is farming as my family have been long out of it. And I have far more life experience than you given my age as compared to yours (going by your children's ages)

St Norberter · 60 Re: The Gods look for more Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:03 pm

St Norberter

major-contributor

Number of posts : 1216
Registration date : 2008-12-26

No Qualifications, I'm just interested to know how long, and at what period. I think it's probably the exception to the norm.

St Norberter · 61 Re: The Gods look for more Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:05 pm

St Norberter

major-contributor

Number of posts : 1216
Registration date : 2008-12-26

holly golightly wrote:

Deank wrote:they are teachers... rules made can be broken under special circumstance. you know.. JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER PROFESSIONAL JOB ON THE PLANET

Can a lawyer take vacation in the middle of a trial? Yes with a continuance being requested because of evidence. Can an accountant take vacation whilst helping his clients through an audit? Yes because s/he has a junior that can handle the audit proceedings. Can a farmer take vacation during calving season? Possibly if they have a reliable ranch hand manager. Can a doctor take vaction when there is no one to fill in? Yes they can close the office for a few days/weeks and direct patients to emergency. Can a Department store manager take vacation during the busy, christmas or back to school seasons? Yes as they have assistant managers to handle the position while the Manager is away.
Hell can most farmers ever take more then a couple of days off at a time, never mind an actual vacation of 7days or more.

Thanks for mentioning the part about the farmers Holly. There was actually an article in either the Western Producer or the Manitoba Co-Operator within the last month about a service that will provide vaction coverage for small farm owners. Something to do with co-ordinating vacation needs for farmers and farm vacations for non-farmers.

St Norberter · 62 Re: The Gods look for more Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:06 pm

St Norberter

major-contributor

Number of posts : 1216
Registration date : 2008-12-26

Deank wrote:I know the responsbilities they hold as well as anyone who is not a teacher... does a single one of them understand my responsibilites?

If I left my job for more then a weeks vacation we would not meet our deadlines. No ifs and or buts we would not meet them. Is it that way for everyone in my office? no. But it is for me.
What does this mean? Well just last spring it would have meant XXX million in lost sales and potential to X.X Billion in sales could have been lost. It was a very major, very time critical project that not only has made our company some money but has started to help to increase the number of lives saved on an hourly basis.
.

You have just proved my point. Your responsibilities and limitations are as a result of your job, not your profession.

Deank · 63 Re: The Gods look for more Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:09 pm

Deank

contributor eminence

Number of posts : 28509
Registration date : 2008-09-28

same as a teacher
they could go work at a private school..
they could teach adult education on 10 week terms

St Norberter · 64 Re: The Gods look for more Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:13 pm

St Norberter

major-contributor

Number of posts : 1216
Registration date : 2008-12-26

Deank wrote:they are teachers... rules made can be broken under special circumstance. you know.. JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER PROFESSIONAL JOB ON THE PLANET

Can a lawyer take vacation in the middle of a trial?

Well, if the lawyer is a real estate lawyer and the trial has no relation to him, then probably yes. Trial lawyer is a job, not a profession.

Deank wrote:Can an accountant take vacation whilst helping his clients through an audit? Can a farmer take vacation during calving season?

Well, if the accountant is working for a manufacturing firm that is no relation to the firm being audited than yes. Auditor is a job accountant is a profession.

Deank wrote:Can a doctor take vaction when there is no one to fill in?

Yes, if they are not involved in public practice, or if the are a specialist. Doctor is a Profession.

Deank wrote:Can a Department store manager take vacation during the busy, christmas or back to school seasons?

Depends what type of store they are working in. I would argue that a Home Depot store manager could because that isn't as busy during back to school. Again you have just pointed out it's the job, not profession.

Deank wrote:Hell can most farmers ever take more then a couple of days off at a time, never mind an actual vacation of 7days or more.

See my earlier post regarding the service advertised in Western Producer.

Are you starting to see the difference between 'Job' and 'Profession'?

St Norberter · 65 Re: The Gods look for more Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:16 pm

St Norberter

major-contributor

Number of posts : 1216
Registration date : 2008-12-26

Deank wrote:same as a teacher
they could go work at a private school..
they could teach adult education on 10 week terms

Private schools generally run the same as public schools.

Yup, they might be able to work 10 week terms, but if you go into term, then it's more take what you can, because you never know what is out there next.

But again, find me another full-time PROFESSION where you are so tightly limited to when you can take your vacation.

Deank · 66 Re: The Gods look for more Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:16 pm

Deank

contributor eminence

Number of posts : 28509
Registration date : 2008-09-28

most farmers I know will hardly even think of letting a good friend or nieghbor look after the farm for a week.. never mind a stranger, no matter how qualified that stranger is.

Holly i am 36 years old. I have been working in a variety of jobs since I was 15.. more if you include farm work since 8... do you have more age then me? perhaps....do you have more life experience... perhaps that as well since I have done little other then work go to school and raise a family.. pretty much zero travel experience if you count that as life experience... do you have a wider variety of work experience? that seems like it could be in doubt and its not a contest by any means so lets not get into it.

Deank · 67 Re: The Gods look for more Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:17 pm

Deank

contributor eminence

Number of posts : 28509
Registration date : 2008-09-28

so again another one of your rules... cant be seasonal, cant be private school, cant include bits of days on either side of existing vacation days.... anything else you want to add on before I tell you and you come up with another rule to your request?

AGEsAces · 68 Re: The Gods look for more Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:20 pm

AGEsAces

moderator

Number of posts : 6890
Registration date : 2008-09-28

I'll also point out that your (DeanK) example is of a limited 4-6 week "rush"
The doctor/dentist...let's not go there...as it seems whenever I want to schedule an appointment, my doctor/dentist is away for a MONTH on vacation.
Store manager? again...a 4-6 week "rush"
Farmer/Rancher? Aside from dairy cows...MOST farmers/ranchers are able to arrange for time off. Usually in the "off" season, which is 3-6 months long.

Teachers...9 (almost straight) months...with "rushes" built in for exams, graduations, etc. And many of them attend school during their downtime, and/or teach off classes in the evenings or over the summer.

Every job has its merits...but there are a few that are over-worked and underpaid.
On that list include teachers, police officers, emergency personnel, military.

From that list though, the teachers are the only ones who are consistently called upon...as in they know from year to year mostly what to expect. And most good teachers do it for years on end.

I don't agree with the teachers unions...I have always found them to be more for the union than the teachers, or the education...but I do believe teachers should be respected for what they do...and rewarded for what they do well.

St Norberter · 69 Re: The Gods look for more Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:25 pm

St Norberter

major-contributor

Number of posts : 1216
Registration date : 2008-12-26

Deank wrote:so again another one of your rules... cant be seasonal, cant be private school, cant include bits of days on either side of existing vacation days.... anything else you want to add on before I tell you and you come up with another rule to your request?

Didn't say it couldn't be private school. Find me a private school that will let a teacher regularily take a one month vaction in Feb.

Can't be seasonal. Why would we compare short term seasonal work to a full time position. That makes no sense.

Generally schools are a little understanding if a teacher takes a day around spring break or christmas break. However, I do know of one division where that is specifically not allowed ( written in their contract). I'd be surprised to see a teacher do that at the end of summer, as they would need to set their classroom up.

Deank · 70 Re: The Gods look for more Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:28 pm

Deank

contributor eminence

Number of posts : 28509
Registration date : 2008-09-28

schools aren;t full time... they get at least three seasons off, christmas, summer and spring break. Which is alot more time off then the guy who works a number of seasonal jobs ... so why are you excluding seasonal jobs? Makes no sense. Some people WANT to be our tree planters, our mushroom pickers our fruit harvestors our crab fisherman... all jobs that are seasonal and run one right into the other... very little time in between seasonal jobs.

holly golightly · 71 Re: The Gods look for more Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:31 pm

holly golightly

major-contributor

Number of posts : 1259
Registration date : 2008-11-01

Sorry private school teachers have to abide by the same set of rules as public school teachers as they all are under the same umbrella of the Government of Manitoba and the Manitoba Teachers Society, although not all adhere to the Manitoba Public Schools Act. And if you are a term teacher, if you leave your after your term has ended to go on vacation you do so at the risk of losing your job, and not being paid because you left. A term position is just that a term and each term is considered a seperate contract. So a teacher is locked into a contract for the term they have signed for.
The only type of teacher that could possibly get away with what you are suggesting is a home school teacher who is only teaching their own children so it is not affecting any one else but they are still required to teach the 200 days a year or a non licensed school (which there are a few in Manitoba). There are also some schools which operate on a different holiday schedule due to religious differences, specifically Grey's Academy at the Asper Campus on Doncaster where they take their spring vacation to coincide with Passover. But they are still locked into a set vacation schedule!!!!!!!!!!!!

holly golightly · 72 Re: The Gods look for more Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:46 pm

holly golightly

major-contributor

Number of posts : 1259
Registration date : 2008-11-01

"very little time in between seasonal jobs." And you have said it, these are JOBS not careers so if a person who is a tree planter/landscaper/snow removal person chooses to take a month off in October who will it affect other than him/herself and their personal business or the employer. It is not a matter of symantics, it is a matter of responibility to your profession in that if a teacher were allowed to take vacation during teaching time the STUDENTS would suffer.
An example I will pull is a former WPG Goldeye pitcher who was on their roster and it was playoff time, he decided to go with the team even though his request to leave his postion was denied and guess what, HE LOST HIS JOB!!!!!!!!!!!!! So even though he was a teacher and made a request for a leave to help out his team he was denied as it was not deemed as a good enough "reason" for a leave. So please do no try to tell me that any teacher can go on vacation at any time they want to, as that is so not the case. And again I will not try to explain the profession of being a teacher and what it entails dureg "vacation" time cause you just won't believe it anyway.
And Christmas break is not a season, it is 10 days, Spring Break is 5 days.

St Norberter · 73 Re: The Gods look for more Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:48 pm

St Norberter

major-contributor

Number of posts : 1216
Registration date : 2008-12-26

Deank wrote:schools aren;t full time... they get at least three seasons off, christmas, summer and spring break. Which is alot more time off then the guy who works a number of seasonal jobs ... so why are you excluding seasonal jobs? Makes no sense. Some people WANT to be our tree planters, our mushroom pickers our fruit harvestors our crab fisherman... all jobs that are seasonal and run one right into the other... very little time in between seasonal jobs.

Since when is spring break ( 1 week) a season?

Deank · 74 Re: The Gods look for more Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:30 pm

Deank

contributor eminence

Number of posts : 28509
Registration date : 2008-09-28

"very little time in between seasonal jobs." And you have said it, these are JOBS not careers"
that is an extremely ignorant comment and belittles the people and expertise needed to do those jobs.
"to take a month off in October who will it affect other than him/herself and their personal business or the employer."
his or her family will starve....you dont quite understand what living pay cheque to pay cheque for a hard working person is it seems

grumpy old man · 75 Re: The Gods look for more Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:29 pm

grumpy old man

administrator

Number of posts : 17663
Registration date : 2008-09-27

Actually I was just as offended by this statement: "Are you starting to see the difference between 'Job' and 'Profession'?

A teacher is a job. A police officer is a job. A fry cook at McD's is a job. A lawyer is a job.

The lot of a teacher is a challenge indeed. But please let's stop this placing teachers on a pedestal horsesh1te.

A teacher knows what they are getting into from day one. Don't like the fact they have to start early and work late some days like many others? Find another job. Don't like it that they can't take off for a January vacation? Too bad so sad. They could have gone at Christmas break. Or spring break. Or summer break. That is something a teacher has available to them in year one. Name one other job that has Christmas off, a week in spring and 8 - 12 weeks every summer.

Gimme a break...

St Norberter · 76 Re: The Gods look for more Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:49 pm

St Norberter

major-contributor

Number of posts : 1216
Registration date : 2008-12-26

grumpy old man wrote:Actually I was just as offended by this statement: "Are you starting to see the difference between 'Job' and 'Profession'?

A teacher is a job. A police officer is a job. A fry cook at McD's is a job. A lawyer is a job.

Wrong.

A teacher is a profession. A grade 5 teacher at XXX school is a job.

A law enforcement officer is a profession. A law enforcement officer with the Winnipeg Police is a Job. A law enforcement officer with the RCMP is a job, a law enforcement officer with the OPP is a job.

A fry cook can be a profession. A fry cook at McD's is a job. A fry cook at Burger king is a job. A fry cook at Wendy's is a job.

A Lawyer is a profession. A Crown Attorney is a job. A criminal defense lawyer is a job. A divorce lawyer is a job. A corporate attorney is a job.

Still waiting on a profession that is as limiting in it's vacation time as a teacher.

I think Holly has already explained the difference between the summer vacation reality and what you percieve as being 8-12 weeks.

Sponsored content

Latest topics

The Gods look for more

51 Re: The Gods look for more Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:44 pm

Deank

52 Re: The Gods look for more Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:48 pm

AGEsAces

53 Re: The Gods look for more Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:49 pm

Deank

54 Re: The Gods look for more Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:50 pm

holly golightly

55 Re: The Gods look for more Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:55 pm

Deank

56 Re: The Gods look for more Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:56 pm

Deank

57 Re: The Gods look for more Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:57 pm

holly golightly

58 Re: The Gods look for more Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:58 pm

Deank

59 Re: The Gods look for more Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:02 pm

holly golightly

60 Re: The Gods look for more Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:03 pm

St Norberter

61 Re: The Gods look for more Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:05 pm

St Norberter

62 Re: The Gods look for more Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:06 pm

St Norberter

63 Re: The Gods look for more Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:09 pm

Deank

64 Re: The Gods look for more Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:13 pm

St Norberter

65 Re: The Gods look for more Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:16 pm

St Norberter

66 Re: The Gods look for more Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:16 pm

Deank

67 Re: The Gods look for more Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:17 pm

Deank

68 Re: The Gods look for more Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:20 pm

AGEsAces

69 Re: The Gods look for more Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:25 pm

St Norberter

70 Re: The Gods look for more Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:28 pm

Deank

71 Re: The Gods look for more Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:31 pm

holly golightly

72 Re: The Gods look for more Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:46 pm

holly golightly

73 Re: The Gods look for more Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:48 pm

St Norberter

74 Re: The Gods look for more Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:30 pm

Deank

75 Re: The Gods look for more Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:29 pm

grumpy old man

76 Re: The Gods look for more Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:49 pm

St Norberter

77 Re: The Gods look for more

Sponsored content