The Gods look for more

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/spending_on_public_schools_ballooning38588662.html

Since when did 3 percent be considered normal when most private people get zip . Bonus to boot it is time the system is brought under tighter control as none of this system is worth it from what the kids I see at work show me .
Maybe it is time to look at closures in fact it was time 5 yrs ago to bad if you kid has to bus across town. This generation wants all of the special programs and classes , yet doe's not want to pay more for them just ask us all to. Last year in Wpg I paid 1800 in school taxes and to boot 900 in Kenora a school system I have never set foot in . My own kids education has been paid for long ago .
Teachers need to suck it up and accept no bonus this year and roll backs to the this nonsense of yearly raises . Also layoffs need to be looked at as the private sector has them and why should a civil service employee be immune . As I state it is time for a major overhaul of this dept and the endless cost increases it comes to me to pay every year . Iam fricking tired of it teach . How about reduced salaries and less of you .

While I am much relieved that my kids are out of the public school system, I obviously continue to pay for their excesses. The school system has hidden behind our children for far too long. Any questioning or criticism is faced with the retort that it is all in the best interest of our children. As a profession, teachers are incredibly well paid and have considerable benefits. My daughter has figured that she will earn about $56,000 per year upon graduation. Not bad considering all the benefits, including 3 months off, a shitload of paid PD days, short work day and a pension which is massively subsidized by the taxpayer. I never begrudge anyone an honest days pay for an honest days work, but our elected school trustees, have basically sold the farm for us. They seem to have forgotten who they represent, not the staff, but the taxpayers who elected them. We have another bloated bureacracy with how many school divisions in Winnipeg alone, each with massive overheads, but don't dare mention it because you'll be labelled as an uncaring, callous bastard who doesn't value a good education for our most valuable resources. I'm just tired of this crap.

Look. It's the bureaucracy boss. The bureaucracy.

grumpy old man wrote:Look. It's the bureaucracy boss. The bureaucracy.

Spelling is not important when you're on a rant!!

Well I and a few of the neighbors around here are going to fight it , it is time the divisions be brought under control and the teachers also . This bs of endless raises to bring children to me who are not prepared to do a days work upon graduation . They are lacking basic skills in most areas and are passed even if they should not be . The schools are keep open so no child has to be inconvenienced (parents).
Close them and cut back on special needs being all over the city, 2 schools 1 east 1 west ends and bring all to them . If you want a special course in some language pay for it I don.t want to . The trustee,s look out The minister look out the people around here are getting ready to fight .

Lobby for Doer to start taking care of Education....it's his responsibility.

See the changes when that happens!!!

meh.. JTF.. err Tom B's article from last week on this was better.

Yea but Tom is not a journalist .

As a former teacher maybe I can enlighten you folks on a few misconceptions here.
1)Freeman, what kind of degree is your daughter getting that she thinks her starting salary will be 56K a year? Curious as when I finished teaching in the public system a few years ago I wasn't anywhere near that and I have my Masters in Early Childhood with 18 years experience.
2) Layoffs in the teaching sector are call being "declared surplus" which means if there is not enough students in an school for the amount of teachers on staff then a teacher is released of their duties at that school to either be picked up by another school that needs them or put on the sub list. If the latter happens, the pay cheque stops and then you begin to collect the sub rate per either half day or full day, depending on the position of the day. Subs are not guaranteed a daily position so it can be a drastic decrease in salary (increase in savings for the taxpayer).
3) As a parent, YOU have every right and responsibility to say to the school administration/teachers that you do not think your child is ready to move on in a certain subject/grade and you would like your child to be held back to repeat and gain the expertise so they can complete properly. Most parents don't know this and if they do, don't exercise their right. I know this as fact as I used it for one of my own children many years ago as I didn't feel she was ready to move on from grade 5 to grade 6, so she repeated grade 5 and as she advanced she ended up graduating from high school with honours and most of her friends graduated with her (a year behind) because they failed subjects in high school.
4) As for the time off, everyone is entitled to a vacation. Think of your job and what you do, whether it be a 9-5 or 8-4 or the midnight shift. You go to work, you do your job and at the end of the day you close down your work station and go home, leaving your work at your desk (for the most part). A teacher (for the most part) usually ends up taking work home with them to prepare for the next day/week as well as to mark and correct papers. Yes they have a prep class during the school day but if it is a 30 minute prep, here is how it is broken up, 5 minutes to walk the students to the gym/music class, find a washroom to go to 2 minutes (teachers can't leave the class to go pee like a student can), find an available phone to call 1, 2 or if lucky 3 parents to discuss their child (18 minutes total) and then another 5 minutes to pick up the class from gym/music. So there is no real "preparation" time. And then there are the endless meetings to discuss curriculum and how to arrange it to meet 30 students needs including the high end to the low end kids. And then for summer "vacation" it usually takes a week in July for the teachers to tear down their class for the summer, and another 2 weeks before school resumes in the fall to prep the class before the students come back so there is 3 weeks of "vacation" that is really not vacation it is still work time without the kids. Which leaves them with 3-4 weeks of summer vacation of which I am sorry they deserve after looking after and teaching the youth of today.
5) And as for PD days, do you not upgrade your education for your position on a regular basis? If you don't then you must have a job, not a career. Teachers MUST upgrade to keep up with the ever increasing changes to the curriculum needs forced on them by government folks who have no clue what it is like to teach in the trenches. So they take 1 day PD days throughout the year and some even take university course to gain extra knowledge in the evenings and during their vacation (Winter, Spring or Summer) so that they are better equipped to teach your kids.
6) And finally to Pav, paying the 900 to Kenora is your choice by having a residence in another province.
Walk a mile in a teacher's shoes before you condemn them for being overpaid.
Ask yourself one question............Would you want to teach the youth of today with their hollier than thou attitudes and the expectation that they should be handed everything on a silver platter.

JTF wrote:Lobby for Doer to start taking care of Education....it's his responsibility.

See the changes when that happens!!!

I HOPE that was supposed to be in the missing "sarcasm" font...as it is NEVER a politicians responsibility for the education of YOUR children.

walking a mile in a non teachers shoes might also make teachers realize how well off they are.
40 hour work week...NOT including lunch breaks.. most lunch breaks are spent actually discussing work or in meetings for work
minimum 10 hours per week extra .. usually near 30 hours more.
3 weeks vacation.
on vacation I am continually dialing in and dealing with issues and work either late in the evening when family is asleep or often as the case on cell phone poolside, soccer field side, whatever.. in a meeting.
education on my own time in the evenings.
I too can be laid off if their is not enough work

Deank wrote:walking a mile in a non teachers shoes might also make teachers realize how well off they are.
40 hour work week...NOT including lunch breaks.. most lunch breaks are spent actually discussing work or in meetings for work
minimum 10 hours per week extra .. usually near 30 hours more.
3 weeks vacation.
on vacation I am continually dialing in and dealing with issues and work either late in the evening when family is asleep or often as the case on cell phone poolside, soccer field side, whatever.. in a meeting.
education on my own time in the evenings.
I too can be laid off if their is not enough work

Are you trying to compare your work week with a teacher's? And you think you have it rough?

Dean...for someone so smart...you really need some education.

A teacher does not work "8-3 Mon-Fri" with 3 months off every year...they are up at 6am, and usually up till midnight creating lesson plans, grading papers, studying topics. And that's 7-days per week.
Summers aren't "off"...they are usually coaching, or studying, or taking summer courses to brush up on their topics.
They are dealing with psychological, social, physical issues of children/teens who don't really want to be in their environment.
They have to deal with peer pressure, teen angst, temperamental parents, and a bureaucracy which doesn't provide efficient educational tools.

I will grant there are some bad and lazy teachers out there...but the good ones don't get talked about or praised in the public eye. They do their job and provide their service without the fanfare.

A dear friend of mine is a teacher now in Korea. She went over for a 2-year contract to hone her skills and enjoy the experience. When she returns, she's planning on teaching and would like to focus on students with learning disabilities.

In her most recent blog update...she made this statement: "I have neither a job nor a career. Instead I have a calling and a
vocation that fills my heart with joy, even during the roughest of
times."

That is what a teacher is about. Good teachers don't teach because they want the money, or the summers off...they teach because it's beyond a job...it's a life.

I am not thinking I have it rough or any worse then most other hard working people. But teachers are NOT the only ones who work hard an who work even when not at work so them thinking they have it so hard seems to be just because they dont know what other people do, much like alot of people think teachers have it easy because they have never been teachers.
I have not had 1 single entire week of my life entirely off of work since I was about 15. Can any teacher say that?

no.. no overtime paid out. I knew that going into the job I dont care.
Not my choice to not take lunch we are an international company often our lunch time is the only time when we can actually have meetings.

not my choice to not answer the phone, to not dial, to request more time off. Its part of doing ones job well regardless of the effort needed.
And just as I have all these choices.. so does a teacher..dont like the job and what it entails.. dont do it... but certainly dont believe you are better and work harder then anyone else just because you are a teacher... instead of teachers saying people need to walk in their shoes... like I said... teachers need to start doing some walking themselves.

One of the reasons I retired from teaching was because of the attitude of not only the children I was teaching (elementary age) where they had that hollier than thou attitude of expectancy but also the attitude of the parents who felt that their children did nothing wrong and that it must have a) been my fault Jonny got in a fight or b) it was Joey's fault for provoking Jonny. Very few parents ever actually listened to the complete version and then decided that the consequences were warranted by the school and that further consequences were needed at home. More often than not I would provide discipline "in house" because I knew sending the kid home from school would be a day off, allowing them to play video games (some punishment for swearing at a teacher/adult, punching another student in the mouth, or the most disgusting of all , spitting at someone) And one of the most disturbing of all answers I would get from parents when I would call to say Jonny hasn't handed in his assignments for X days, and the parent would reply he was too busy playing (insert sport here) and too tired after the game to do his homework. I'm sorry, homework comes first and sport second because the way I look at it, unless your an elite athlete who has a 1% chance of becoming a professional athlete, sports will not pay for the groceries on the table when you grow up but an education will. (And if you are lucky to be in the 1%, you will still need an education to fall back on when injuries hit/age happens and retirement from sports is inevitable.)
Teachers go into this profession most knowing exactly what they are in for but it is people who don't take the time to do understand what a teacher's position entails and only looks at the 9-3:30 on/Christmas/Spring and Summer time off as the only part of their job. The job is much more than a 40 hour a week job and sometimes the repercussions of not helping a student when you thought you should have (second guessing yourself) can last a lifetime. Good teachers take it personally when a child fails because maybe there was something more that could have been done for that child but without the resources available or being available too late that child didn't make it.
And most non teaching jobs do not entail you to be responsible for the same 20+ young minds for 200 days a year. You help your client resolve their issue and move on to the next client, sometimes helping out 5 clients at one time (all of whom are adults I presume).
I give teachers a great deal of respect because I used to be one and I understand why they become so pissed when the public cries foul if they want something because most of the public have no idea what it is like to be a teacher in today's society, they are only remembering what their teachers were like.
Again I ask would you want to teach today's children?

And Ages, well said, Amen.

up to about grade 6.. yep I would want to teach.

And... I totally agree about the parents who refuse to see thier kid being bad thing.... very frustrating and yeah a day at home often is not punishment but more of a reward.

holly golightly wrote:

Deank wrote:walking a mile in a non teachers shoes might also make teachers realize how well off they are.
40 hour work week...NOT including lunch breaks.. most lunch breaks are spent actually discussing work or in meetings for work (your choice to not take your lunch)
minimum 10 hours per week extra .. usually near 30 hours more. (overtime paid out????????)
3 weeks vacation.
on vacation I am continually dialing in and dealing with issues and work either late in the evening when family is asleep or often as the case on cell phone poolside, soccer field side, whatever.. in a meeting. (again your choice to answer your cell phone or to not request extra days off after you have dealth with these issues)
education on my own time in the evenings. (as is for a teacher who takes evening classes and courses during the summer all of which they also pay for from their own salaries)
I too can be laid off if their is not enough work

Its my choice to anwser my cell and its my employers choice to can me for not anwsering it! lol

Wow. Holly and AA. Those teachers you describe must be immortal. Saints maybe eh?

I think that the real workload a teacher carries is much less than described. I have a niece that teaches school here in Winnipeg. I can assure you she describes no work environment as written herein.

As for class preparations if our teachers today are working that hard to prepare the next days classes we are indeed in trouble. Today's technology allows for incredible productivity gains. The curriculum and course outlines should allow a teacher to plan well in advance; to have A/V needs scheduled; tests printed and scheduled. There are templates for tests and grading.

The school day is what 9 - 3 (not sure about that)? My day starts at 8 (earlier if need be) and runs to 4:30 (later if need be). I work a few hours on the weekends. Sure - all my choice. Just as any extra hours worked are a teachers choice.

I'm salaried so I don't get overtime. But I know that going in. I've accepted it. It is also the way to growing my income and advancing my career.

Don't get me wrong. Teachers have a very difficult job. And I could not do it. Don't want to either. But they are not the saints and martyrs that some will have us believe.

I'm salaried and I make overtime....YAY for unions!!!!!

"The school day is what 9 - 3 (not sure about that)? My day starts at 8 (earlier if need be) and runs to 4:30 (later if need be). I work a few hours on the weekends. Sure - all my choice. Just as any extra hours worked are a teachers choice." GOM.
See there is that preconceived idea that a teacher's job is from 9-3:30. That is soooooooooo wrong, they are responsible for the children from 9-3:30 to TEACH them, so when do they get to do the prep and correct papers if not after hours, at home. So this is not considered extra hours, just part of the job which most know comes as part of the job. And a lot go in early to prep for the day and make sure that all A/V equipment is available, not broken by a class the day before etc., and that the piece they are going to show is actually working and has actually arrived by the courier. Don't forget that most schools still share A/V tapes/discs etc. so you have to get in line to have this stuff for your kids.
And as a teacher becomes more experienced and has done the job repeated for many years, yes things become much easier so the "overtime" that is needed is much less. But if a teacher has been teaching the same thing to the same grade for 10 years, it is also time for them to move on and make a change, either forced by the school admin/principal or by choice.
One more question GOM, what grade/division and how long has she been teaching as that is also a factor to why she/you may think I am off on what I am saying (I taught in #1 which is very much different than any other division in the city)

holly golightly wrote:One more question GOM, what grade/division and how long has she been teaching as that is also a factor to why she/you may think I am off on what I am saying (I taught in #1 which is very much different than any other division in the city)

You mean it makes a difference? All teachers don't work as hard as described? Just pulling your leg...

She teaches grade four in a French immersion school within a five minute drive of Portage and Main.

Grade four in a French Immersion school is a different beast altogther for the one simple fact that the parents chose for their children to go there so right there you know there is going to be a modicom of parental involvement.
What I described is what is typical of a teacher who teaches in Div #1 which has some of the poorest children/families to deal with (as well as some of the wealthiest who can be just as, if not worse than their poor counterparts). For myself, my last year I started with 26 kids on the first day of school, on Oct 1 I had 30, 22 of which were the same kids from day 1 so there we 8 new/different kids in less than a month. At Christmas I still had 30 but now only 18 of the same kids, so 12 "new" faces however, 3 of those were kids who returned and I had them on day 1. And on June 30, I had 27 students, 10 of which made it through the whole year with me without ever leaving the school. So as you can see over the course of one school year a teacher can be responsible for the learning of over 40 kids. And each time a child moves from one school to the next it sets their learning back by one month so if one child makes 6 moves in a school year, consider that year a waste for that child because every class change may mean that they could be learning the same thing over again as each teacher teachs a subject/ theme in different order than another (and this can be due to the A/V schedule).
I know you are pulling my leg but most people have no idea what a teacher has to deal with in one school year in a normal English school. I don't pretend to know what a French immersion teacher's life is like because I never taught at a French school but I would think their position can be just as tough.

Gotta agree with Holly and AA on this one.

Work environments vary from division to division and from school to school - School administration has alot to do with it.

One thing that a lot of people do is compare their job with that of a teacher. There is one majoe problem with that - you are usually comparing working for your employer vs. the profession of a teacher. For example, if most of us did not like our working conditions, there is always the possibility of going elsewhere to do the same type of job. What about a teacher? If you don't like working in the public system, your only option is public. But what if you're a teacher and you want a job where you can take vacation time in January - nothing. Most of us can find a career where at some point we will be able to have some choice over when we take our vacation. ( the only other profession I can think of off hand is that of a priest - how many can take vacation at christmas time, but aside from that there aren't any other limits)

I'm not suggesting that all teachers are angels, ( there are bad apples in every bunch), but comparing jobs without actually having a good in-depth knowledge is irresponsible.

I recently made contact through Facebook with my French teacher from High School (that class was more than 20 years ago)

He's still teaching...teaches 4 different language classes at the school (French, Russian, German, Latin).

I had always admired him...his zeal for teaching, and positive outlook on things.

Apparently they got some snow there this week...as they had a "snowday" yesterday and today. He made a post that he "feels bad he wasted his day by playing games and taking two naps". Mostly because he has 3 classes of exams he needs to grade, and he has been procrastinating.

The guy had been teaching for 10 years when I was his student. The comments made on his Facebook page from other former students and friends were things like "Hey, you deserve the naps" and "You should procrastinate for a couple of years, not days...enjoy the time "off"".

Again, there are teachers I had in school who I KNOW should not have been teaching. It is not a "job" for everyone...and I would not claim them to be "saints"...but they are certainly more important than MOST jobs out there...and are underpaid for their service and responsibilities.