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the winnipeg sandbox » winnipeg sandbox.. » local... » if city workers strike...how will we notice?

if city workers strike...how will we notice?

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AGEsAces
Sourpuss
St Norberter
holly golightly
Jondo
grumpy old man
Deank
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grumpyrom


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In this case it seems that binding arbitration is the best way to go for both parties unless the City and Sam are looking to cause a strike intentionally for whatever reasons be it short term cost savings, union busting, Sam's ego being hurt because CUPE didn't support his re-election bid etc. The only thing I see is one party that is doing everything in their power to avoid a work stoppage and one party who is dead set on not backing down from their demands.

Based on Ms.Howards version of the events there was no "meddling" untill March 1st which is a fair bit different from Sam's version of Feb.22nd. In the end it doesn't really matter as Sam seem's to be looking for someone to blame for what at the moment looks like an impending strike.

As Deank notes above, binding arbitration can recommend EITHER parties proposal or something completely different. If CUPE is willing to let a 3rd party decide what is fair, what is Sam so scared of? Both parties have to agree on a potential mediator, I'm sure there has to be someone on the list that would be impartial enough that both can agree on him. Unless Sam and CFO Linda Black feel this offer is completely unfair what are they so scared of?

Whatever outcome happens, I just hope all the union haters are just as in full force when the WPS and WFPS contracts come up later this year. If a 2 year wage freeze is necessary for CUPE, I hope they recieve the same initial offer. Unless Sam decides to play politics and reward the 2 unions that backed his re-election. Will they receive the same negativity if they're offered another 9% increase over 2yrs?

To me this is just Sam pandering to his conservitive followers trying to show how "tough" he is on unions, forgetting the gifts he gave to his friends last contract. I'm also curious if the 2yr CUPE wage freeze is absolutely needed will the freeze be enacted amongst the WAPSO brass who all earn significantly more than the CUPE members? What about Sam himself and the city councillors and exectuive level employees like Ms. Black herself? This behaviour is absolutely shamefull unless it's spread evenly across the board.

Freeman

Freeman
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grumpyrom wrote:In this case it seems that binding arbitration is the best way to go for both parties unless the City and Sam are looking to cause a strike intentionally for whatever reasons be it short term cost savings, union busting, Sam's ego being hurt because CUPE didn't support his re-election bid etc. The only thing I see is one party that is doing everything in their power to avoid a work stoppage and one party who is dead set on not backing down from their demands.

For once we agree, but how does one get the union to see that their demands are unreasonable and back down?

Deank

Deank
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I admit there is indeed some oddness in these events. From all parties.


biggest problem though is that the budget is already hosed... not sure how increases (for anyone) can be justified.

Deank

Deank
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Freeman wrote:
grumpyrom wrote:In this case it seems that binding arbitration is the best way to go for both parties unless the City and Sam are looking to cause a strike intentionally for whatever reasons be it short term cost savings, union busting, Sam's ego being hurt because CUPE didn't support his re-election bid etc. The only thing I see is one party that is doing everything in their power to avoid a work stoppage and one party who is dead set on not backing down from their demands.

For once we agree, but how does one get the union to see that their demands are unreasonable and back down?

maybe we should hire some special constables?

grumpy old man

grumpy old man
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If the city finance peeps are smart they budget such things as planned wage increases. So if the city was adamant they were not going to increase wages they may well have not included those numbers in their budget(s).

grumpy old man

grumpy old man
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I'm not sure what the WPS and WFPS have to do with this particular issue. I think such discussions are typical of union lovers. You know, one for all and all for one mindset.

I don't think I want to lump a police officer in with a general labourer when I negotiate wages. Same with firefighters and paramedics. These are a vastly different group.

Besides, they can't strike...

grumpyrom

grumpyrom
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Freeman wrote:
grumpyrom wrote:In this case it seems that binding arbitration is the best way to go for both parties unless the City and Sam are looking to cause a strike intentionally for whatever reasons be it short term cost savings, union busting, Sam's ego being hurt because CUPE didn't support his re-election bid etc. The only thing I see is one party that is doing everything in their power to avoid a work stoppage and one party who is dead set on not backing down from their demands.

For once we agree, but how does one get the union to see that their demands are unreasonable and back down?

What's unreasonable about demanding a wage increase that is at least a fraction of the inflation level? Maybe instead of hating on union workers who demand some sort of cost of living increase, the peeps who gladly took whatever freeze was given to them should sack up and demand something better.

Yes I used the word DEMAND a lot and intentionally. Anyone that accepts a wage freeze with the inflation we are witnessing is a complete fool. People need to stop hating on people who are willing to stand up and demand something better just because they themselves are not willing to suffer the potential negative consequences of demanding something fair.

Sorry Freeman, you and I must be living on 2 completely different planets.

Freeman

Freeman
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grumpyrom wrote:Maybe instead of hating on union workers who demand some sort of cost of living increase, the peeps who gladly took whatever freeze was given to them should sack up and demand something better.

Yes I used the word DEMAND a lot and intentionally. Anyone that accepts a wage freeze with the inflation we are witnessing is a complete fool. People need to stop hating on people who are willing to stand up and demand something better just because they themselves are not willing to suffer the potential negative consequences of demanding something fair.

Sorry Freeman, you and I must be living on 2 completely different planets.

You're right, I live on planet Earth.

Why do you keep using the word "hate"? Is this your feelings?

Also, why use the age old union tactic of personalzing the issue? Katz was democratically elected Mayor, and he is but one vote one Council. So, this is really Mike Davidson making these demands. Remember, he continues to get paid even if strike action is taken. Maybe a bunch of us should protest in front of his house and demand that he back down. Should work both ways, yes?

grumpyrom

grumpyrom
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grumpy old man wrote:I'm not sure what the WPS and WFPS have to do with this particular issue. I think such discussions are typical of union lovers. You know, one for all and all for one mindset.

I don't think I want to lump a police officer in with a general labourer when I negotiate wages. Same with firefighters and paramedics. These are a vastly different group.

Besides, they can't strike...

They have a lot to do with the issue GOM. Both of those 2 unions received wage increases considerably higher than the inflation rate in their last contracts, you think their is no link to the fact that their respective unions have both backed Sam in the past? If Sam wants to be tough on lowering costs then he needs to start looking at costs across the board.

All I'm saying is that I wouldn't be surprised that the initial offers made to both those 2 unions and to WAPSO will likely not include any freeze. Will all the union bashers still be in force demanding they accept a wage freeze as well for the good of the budget?

By what virtue is a general labourer (which are a small % of CUPE members BTW) less deserving of a wage increase that at lease makes up for a portion of the rise in inflation? These people aren't demanding a 10% over 3yr increase or something ludicrous, but 4% over 4 yrs after a 2yr freeze is ludicrous given the increase in fuel costs alone.

Freeman

Freeman
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PS, what causes inflation?

grumpyrom

grumpyrom
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Freeman wrote:
grumpyrom wrote:Maybe instead of hating on union workers who demand some sort of cost of living increase, the peeps who gladly took whatever freeze was given to them should sack up and demand something better.

Yes I used the word DEMAND a lot and intentionally. Anyone that accepts a wage freeze with the inflation we are witnessing is a complete fool. People need to stop hating on people who are willing to stand up and demand something better just because they themselves are not willing to suffer the potential negative consequences of demanding something fair.

Sorry Freeman, you and I must be living on 2 completely different planets.

You're right, I live on planet Earth.

Why do you keep using the word "hate"? Is this your feelings?

Also, why use the age old union tactic of personalzing the issue? Katz was democratically elected Mayor, and he is but one vote one Council. So, this is really Mike Davidson making these demands. Remember, he continues to get paid even if strike action is taken. Maybe a bunch of us should protest in front of his house and demand that he back down. Should work both ways, yes?

Personalizing the issue because Sam himself has come out and made a good part of the issue about himself. I don't see Sam letting his media relations team handle the situation regarding the negotiations nor do I see him allowing his CFO to be the focus, I see SAM being SAM and focussing the spotlight on himself.

To me that implies that a lot more of what is going on has to do with SAM and what image he wants to portray to the ellectorate.

It's a free country, if you or the CTF or whoever want to protest peacefully in front of Mr.Davidson's house I don't think anyone out there will stop you.

Oh, and BTW "hating on" is a rather common phrase nowadays....sorry if my use of the English language dropped down to a common level. You know I am just a dumb union member, we don't have very good edumacations and all.

grumpy old man

grumpy old man
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I did not say anyone was less deserving of a wage increase.

grumpyrom

grumpyrom
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Freeman wrote:PS, what causes inflation?

Obviously only wage increases for lowly workers if city workers strike...how will we notice? - Page 3 970993

Wage increases for professionals and executives somehow have no effect on inflation right? if city workers strike...how will we notice? - Page 3 970993

That the answer you were looking for?

Why don't you enlighten me?

grumpy old man

grumpy old man
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Okay then. Lets picket davidson's house. And we'll be as peaceful as the average picketer is when someone wishes to cross a union picket line.

Totally fair and reasonable.

grumpy old man

grumpy old man
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administrator

Did we actually not experience deflation last year in Manitoba?

grumpy old man

grumpy old man
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administrator

I think the sarcasm smiley's are superfluous.

grumpyrom

grumpyrom
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grumpy old man wrote:I did not say anyone was less deserving of a wage increase.

Not directly, but that is how I took (mistook) your "lumping together" comment. Sorry if this was not your intention.

grumpyrom

grumpyrom
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grumpy old man wrote:I think the sarcasm smiley's are superfluous.

Just a bit eh? lol!

grumpy old man

grumpy old man
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Not at all.

I have a different mindset when negotiating wages for people that put their lives on the line daily versus those that sweep sidewalks and dig ditches.

Deank

Deank
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"What's unreasonable about demanding a wage increase that is at least a fraction of the inflation level?"

I'll go with that. support it 100% wholeheartedly

PROVIDED... we start with 1950 Salary.. index by inflation since then and see where we end up at today....Willing to go with that?

grumpyrom

grumpyrom
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grumpy old man wrote:Not at all.

I have a different mindset when negotiating wages for people that put their lives on the line daily versus those that sweep sidewalks and dig ditches.

So do I, but that doesn't give them carte blanche when demanding raises either. You can't go and tell 50% of your workforce that there's no money for raises even at a cost of living level, and then go hand 15% of your workforce increases at double that rate and expect the 50% not to feel screwed regardless of job function.

I have no problem with giving WPS and WFPS the increases they deserve, but it shouldn't come at the expense of the other 50%. Find another way.

grumpy old man

grumpy old man
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grumpyrom wrote:
So do I, but that doesn't give them carte blanche when demanding raises either. You can't go and tell 50% of your workforce that there's no money for raises even at a cost of living level, and then go hand 15% of your workforce increases at double that rate and expect the 50% not to feel screwed regardless of job function.

I have no problem with giving WPS and WFPS the increases they deserve, but it shouldn't come at the expense of the other 50%. Find another way.
Say, don't we have enough antagonism in these matters to worry about made up stuff?

I understand your thought-process but don't understand your concern. It does not exist so why get our knickers in a bunch?

grumpy old man

grumpy old man
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Deank wrote:"What's unreasonable about demanding a wage increase that is at least a fraction of the inflation level?"

I'll go with that. support it 100% wholeheartedly

PROVIDED... we start with 1950 Salary.. index by inflation since then and see where we end up at today....Willing to go with that?
What about the deflation we experienced last year in Manitoba? Can we include that in our negotiations?

Deank

Deank
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We certainly can GOM

I have no problem at all tying ALL government paid people to inflation. Everything from welfare to premier.

PROVIDED... we step back and actually come up with real numbers, not the ones that currently exist. some people might go up.. some might go down. But in the end we will end up with everyone knowing that we are paying employees fairly and that those employees will get inflation based raises ( or deraises) for the rest of eternity.

Anytime the government paid people want more then inflation..they must agree to pay raises based solely on merit for all workers of the same class.

ie.. MLAs want more? fine.. you they guy who attended every single day the legislature sat and talked almost every day? You get a raise... you the MLA who was barely ever there... you get paid less.

You the Guy who takes 5 hours to do a task that other employees do in 7.. you get a raise.. the other guy ...he gets paid less.

grumpy old man

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Pay based on merit? That's crazy talk.

Everyone get's paid the same. Oh. And we promote on seniority. Merit will not be a consideration. Welcome to planet earth!

Spoiler:

grumpyrom

grumpyrom
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GOM, the CPI for the 12 months ending in January 2011 was 2.3 percent for Manitoba. That does NOT including the increase in housing which depending on your stats was between 5 and 10 %.

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