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Liberals Broke the Law?

+2
Deank
Goth_chic
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1Liberals Broke the Law? Empty Liberals Broke the Law? Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:50 pm

Goth_chic

Goth_chic
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Top court says Ottawa broke law in financing EI

OTTAWA - The Supreme Court of Canada says the federal government broke the law in financing the employment insurance system by transforming premiums paid by workers and employers into an unconstitutional tax.
In a 7-0 judgment, the court ruled Thursday the former Liberal governments of Jean Chretien and Paul Martin collected EI contributions illegally in 2002, 2003 and 2005.
In those years, EI rates were set directly by cabinet without proper authorization from Parliament, violating the ancient constitutional principle of no taxation without representation.
However, the court said Ottawa legitimately collected premiums in all other years since 1996 and rejected claims by organized labour that the Liberals deliberately ran up massive surpluses in the EI fund, then diverted the money to balance the federal budget and fund other initiatives.
The Confederation des Syndicats Nationaux, one of Quebec's leading labour organizations, had demanded that $54 billion in allegedly diverted premiums be returned to the EI system and used to fund future benefits to jobless workers.
The court issued no order for repayment and suspended the effect of its judgment for one year in order to give the federal government time to sort out the legislative tangle.
The confederation also contended that federal jurisdiction is strictly limited to providing such benefits, and that any training, placement or other social services should be left to the provinces. The court rejected that claim, as well.
The dispute has its roots in the deficit-fighting efforts of Martin as finance minister under Chretien. Critics have long maintained the strategy amounted to balancing the federal books on the backs of the unemployed.
The Liberals brought in legislation in 1996 that tightened eligibility rules for EI benefits but simultaneously opened the door to new training, education, placement and other programs.
Critics say the government then went on to set the premiums charged to workers and employers at higher rates than were necessary to fund the reduced benefits and new programs.
The result was a ballooning surplus in the EI fund - a revenue windfall critics said could be used first to balance the budget and later to support other Liberal initiatives that had no connection to EI.
Opposition MPs, labour unions, business groups and Auditor General Sheila Fraser all complained repeatedly about the new regime but to no avail.
The current Conservative government promised earlier this year to set up an independent Crown corporation to run EI on a break-even basis. But the Tories didn't offer to restore the $54 billion diverted in the past.
The confederation, backed by an aluminum workers union in the northern Quebec town of Arvida, launched a legal challenge to the system in 2003.
Their claims were rejected by both Quebec Superior Court and the Quebec Court of Appeal, but for different legal reasons in each case.
The Canadian Labour Congress intervened at the Supreme Court to back the demand for repayment of the $54 billion in diverted premiums.
The CLC balked, however, at the idea of leaving training and other programs solely to the provinces. It urged the high court to maintain the federal ability to run such programs across the country.
Federal lawyer James Mabbutt argued in May that the rules advocated by the unions would put future governments in a "constitutional straitjacket" in managing the system.
Much of the dispute hinged on the interpretation of a 1940 constitutional amendment that first gave Ottawa the power to set up a national employment insurance system.
The case also raised a host of related questions about federal taxation and spending powers and whether Ottawa had been poaching on provincial turf.

2Liberals Broke the Law? Empty Re: Liberals Broke the Law? Thu Dec 11, 2008 4:28 pm

Deank

Deank
contributor eminence
contributor eminence

what gives the "Canadian Labour Congress " the right to demand anything for me?

3Liberals Broke the Law? Empty Re: Liberals Broke the Law? Thu Dec 11, 2008 4:58 pm

grumpy old man

grumpy old man
administrator
administrator

They think they speak for everybody. It is a make work project for them I'm sure. To justify their existence.

4Liberals Broke the Law? Empty Re: Liberals Broke the Law? Thu Dec 11, 2008 9:37 pm

Guest

Anonymous
Guest

What is the average draw for the 10.00 an hour worker from EI. From what I understand it is much harder to get it now and harder to stay on it ,

5Liberals Broke the Law? Empty Re: Liberals Broke the Law? Thu Dec 11, 2008 10:16 pm

grumpy old man

grumpy old man
administrator
administrator

Don't know what the percentage is. It should be looked at as a stop-gap measure. Not a lifestyle. How many seasonal workers draw EI in their "off season"? And do so year after year after year?

It should be hard to obtain. Work X weeks. Legitimately lose job (not fired or quit). Get benefits.

6Liberals Broke the Law? Empty Re: Liberals Broke the Law? Thu Dec 11, 2008 10:39 pm

Guest

Anonymous
Guest

From what I undrstand it is alot tougher then the last time I was on it late 70's early 80'

7Liberals Broke the Law? Empty Re: Liberals Broke the Law? Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:04 pm

Deank

Deank
contributor eminence
contributor eminence

55% to a max of 750 biweekly?
I think... or hmm .no lower then that.

8Liberals Broke the Law? Empty Re: Liberals Broke the Law? Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:27 pm

grumpyrom

grumpyrom
major-contributor
major-contributor

grumpy old man wrote:Don't know what the percentage is. It should be looked at as a stop-gap measure. Not a lifestyle. How many seasonal workers draw EI in their "off season"? And do so year after year after year?

It should be hard to obtain. Work X weeks. Legitimately lose job (not fired or quit). Get benefits.

Can't disagree more....your telling me as an example that a guy that has 30 years experience doing nothing but cement finishing, who makes $20/hr for 7 months of the year and draws $10/hr for 5 months of the year from EI should be denied benefits? What are his options? Go work for minimum wage for the other 5 months of the year where the ground is frozen? Is it their fault they work in an industry that is weather dependent in this frozen wasteland? Would you do that job if you knew you had nothing to fall back on during the slow months?

Picking on seasonal workers who do the bottom of the barrel back braking work by claiming that EI should be "harder to obtain" ? I don't get it....you fail to realise that not everyone has the necessary intelligence or skills to obtain other work. If all you've ever done is one highly specialized job, it's kind of hard to just find work for the other 5 months of the year that pays at least as much as EI. Who in their right mind would go work for less than they get on EI?

9Liberals Broke the Law? Empty Re: Liberals Broke the Law? Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:31 pm

grumpyrom

grumpyrom
major-contributor
major-contributor

EI has been nothing but an employment tax for many years now, both on the employer and employees. Any time you have an "income insurance plan" that draws more revenue than it pays out in benefits it's no longer insurance but instead becomes a tax.

The Liberals got way too comfortable placing EI premiums into general revenues. Either they should have cut premiums or increased benefits to make the fund revenue neutral. When a fund is making billions in surplus year after year, but yet premiums and benefits remain unchanged something is severely wrong.

10Liberals Broke the Law? Empty Re: Liberals Broke the Law? Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:44 pm

Deank

Deank
contributor eminence
contributor eminence

"Is it their fault they work in an industry that is weather dependent in this frozen wasteland?"
yes?

11Liberals Broke the Law? Empty Re: Liberals Broke the Law? Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:48 pm

grumpyrom

grumpyrom
major-contributor
major-contributor

Deank wrote:"Is it their fault they work in an industry that is weather dependent in this frozen wasteland?"
yes?

So better to have none do this work then? That will help our infrastructure problems for sure. Being a realist for a moment, not everyone is cut out for white collar work. Somebeody has to do the seasonal work. Removing benefits for EI workers sounds pretty elitist to me.

12Liberals Broke the Law? Empty Re: Liberals Broke the Law? Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:54 pm

Deank

Deank
contributor eminence
contributor eminence

its called managing your money properly.
Get paid $30 an hour during 6 months and nothing during the other 6 months.. year in and year out? Well that is basically $15 per hour and maybe not a job you would want... Make the employer pay more if you can so that you are better off for the next 6 months.. but charge the rest of society a tax??? hogwash....
EI should be a bit easier to get in some circumstances. ie.. you should be able to quit if you can prove your boss in an ass or its a dead end job or some other such thing.. but this whole seasonal worker crap.. frick that...get another job during the winter or make them pay you more during the summer
( and for the record I have worked jobs where cement was poured and worked on in the winter....so perhaps that one is a poor choice.. but I know what you mean)

13Liberals Broke the Law? Empty Re: Liberals Broke the Law? Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:55 pm

Freeman

Freeman
uber-contributor
uber-contributor

grumpyrom wrote:
Deank wrote:"Is it their fault they work in an industry that is weather dependent in this frozen wasteland?"
yes?

So better to have none do this work then? That will help our infrastructure problems for sure. Being a realist for a moment, not everyone is cut out for white collar work. Somebeody has to do the seasonal work. Removing benefits for EI workers sounds pretty elitist to me.
"Elitist"?? Where the hell did that come from? Someone expresses an opinion that differs from you and they become elitist? Calling names doesn't make a good argument, comrade.

If it truly is an "insurance" plan, then just like the insurance on your house, you have a responsibilty to mitigate your damages. If your house is on fire, you don't let it burn, you call the fire department. If you're out of work, find something else.

14Liberals Broke the Law? Empty Re: Liberals Broke the Law? Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:27 pm

grumpyrom

grumpyrom
major-contributor
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My elitist comment came from the "make it harder for seasonal workers to collect" post further up. It just seems like it's pretty easy from some of us who may be fortunate enough to have been able to recieve an adequate enough education to perform more desirable work to dump on seasonal workers and decide that it would be better if that were not their "lifestyle".

Seems like your the one calling names also, Tavarish Freeman. Accusing one of being communist because their view of the world is more socialist than the prevailing right wing thoughts that seem to be the norm on this board?I hope you do understand that socialism does not necessarily have to equate to communism. For a good example of this check out the way the Scandinavians run things.

Although I may be fortunate enough to not rely on EI every winter, I certainly don't bemoan those who do. Like I said, not every one is necessarily capable of other work and to settle for wages that would be lower than EI pays would not make a lot of fiscal sense for most working class folks. I prefer to put the shoe on the other foot before demonizing people trying to make ends meet.

15Liberals Broke the Law? Empty Re: Liberals Broke the Law? Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:41 pm

grumpy old man

grumpy old man
administrator
administrator

@ grumpyrom. Read my post again sport. You tend to jump to conclusions, fly off the handle and over-react when you disagree with someone. This this is no different.

Friends of mine used to get on at the city during the summer and collect EI during the winter. These were fit 20-something guys who decided they would rather sit back and relax during the winter then go and find another job. Those are the seasonal workers I'm most familiar with. That was a lifestyle choice for many people. I will bet it happens today as well.

Your views on unions and now here on EI are very socialistic grumpyrom. While I struggle with socialistic views, I try to keep a civil tongue in my head when I disagree. I've been at the mercy of your backlash before when you don't agree with something I've said or misinterpret what I said.

For the record I've suggested EI be more difficult to collect. I also suggested it should not be a lifestyle choice. If so, maybe we handle the rates like real insurance. Collect once. Maybe twice and you're forgiven. Collect every year and maybe you pay a premium. I expect you don't like that idea either. Better peeps are perpetually sucking on society's teats eh?

Lastly, the world owes nobody a damn thing. Just because someone chooses a seasonal job does not mean I have to subsidize him every friggen year.



Last edited by grumpy old man on Fri Dec 12, 2008 7:44 pm; edited 1 time in total

16Liberals Broke the Law? Empty Re: Liberals Broke the Law? Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:01 pm

Freeman

Freeman
uber-contributor
uber-contributor

grumpyrom wrote:My elitist comment came from the "make it harder for seasonal workers to collect" post further up. It just seems like it's pretty easy from some of us who may be fortunate enough to have been able to recieve an adequate enough education to perform more desirable work to dump on seasonal workers and decide that it would be better if that were not their "lifestyle".

Seems like your the one calling names also, Tavarish Freeman. Accusing one of being communist because their view of the world is more socialist than the prevailing right wing thoughts that seem to be the norm on this board?I hope you do understand that socialism does not necessarily have to equate to communism. For a good example of this check out the way the Scandinavians run things.

Although I may be fortunate enough to not rely on EI every winter, I certainly don't bemoan those who do. Like I said, not every one is necessarily capable of other work and to settle for wages that would be lower than EI pays would not make a lot of fiscal sense for most working class folks. I prefer to put the shoe on the other foot before demonizing people trying to make ends meet.
Seems to me that you're the one defining some sort of class system. (Knew the Comrade would strike a nerve)
Its not that I was "fortunate" enough to receive an adequate education, I went and got one and I'm still at it after 36 years in the workforce.

How do you put yourself on this pedestal that makes you more "fotunate" than others and that you can comment on their lot in life? Is that a "socialist" thing?

17Liberals Broke the Law? Empty Re: Liberals Broke the Law? Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:03 pm

grumpy old man

grumpy old man
administrator
administrator

grumpyrom wrote:My elitist comment came from the "make it harder for seasonal workers to collect" post further up. It just seems like it's pretty easy from some of us who may be fortunate enough to have been able to recieve an adequate enough education to perform more desirable work to dump on seasonal workers and decide that it would be better if that were not their "lifestyle".
You know nothing about me but you don't mind leaping to conclusions. If you knew me and my background you would not be shooting your mouth off like this.

So much for the civil tongue but some peeps have a way of bringing out the worst in me.

18Liberals Broke the Law? Empty Re: Liberals Broke the Law? Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:23 pm

grumpyrom

grumpyrom
major-contributor
major-contributor

My experience with seasonal workers tends to be the opposite of your GOM. Most of the ones I know tend to be in their 40's to 50's, speak English as a second language, came to Canada to provide better opportunities for their children, have very little if any formal education, and for the most part are some of the absolute hardest workers I've ever known. For these guys working a seasonal job is far from a lifestyle choice. These are the seasonal workers I'm most familiar with. You can stop by any road job in the summer time and I can pretty much guarantee that English will not be the main language spoken.

19Liberals Broke the Law? Empty Re: Liberals Broke the Law? Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:48 am

Deank

Deank
contributor eminence
contributor eminence

"absolute hardest workers I've ever known"
the hardest workers I know, take whatever job there is before them..and learn it, then do it untiul something better comes along.

20Liberals Broke the Law? Empty Re: Liberals Broke the Law? Sat Dec 13, 2008 8:29 am

rosencrentz

rosencrentz
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The UI plan was making so much money, over its payouts! Wow, 54 billion- should all be used to prevent climate change- just look outside the temperature would be -22 instead of -22.001.
The government pays out a less % at 55 than the USA at 75%.
Typical mean spirited government, take it out on the poor , unemployed, hopefully that person will be a single mother, and even better , perhaps of aboriginal background!

http://www.elansofas.com

21Liberals Broke the Law? Empty Re: Liberals Broke the Law? Sat Dec 13, 2008 8:42 am

Guest

Anonymous
Guest

Deank wrote:"absolute hardest workers I've ever known"
the hardest workers I know, take whatever job there is before them..and learn it, then do it untiul something better comes along.

Or go in to the Senate.

22Liberals Broke the Law? Empty Re: Liberals Broke the Law? Sat Dec 13, 2008 8:47 am

Guest

Anonymous
Guest

I was a seasonal worker in University and it was easy back then to collect but it was starting to toughen up from what i remember . The plan was running huge deficits and the conservatives wanted to scrape the plan as it was a bottomless pit . Thank God i don,t need it now as it is hard to get and running over budget , good thing Jean Chretien fixed it for all .

23Liberals Broke the Law? Empty Re: Liberals Broke the Law? Sat Dec 13, 2008 12:42 pm

Guest

Anonymous
Guest

Oh ya...Chretein fixed that real well eh...LOL Rolling Eyes

24Liberals Broke the Law? Empty Re: Liberals Broke the Law? Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:28 pm

Guest

Anonymous
Guest

Well it has money in the kity don't it . lol

25Liberals Broke the Law? Empty Re: Liberals Broke the Law? Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:36 pm

Guest

Anonymous
Guest

Heh...ya it does...but that's because nobody qualifys for it anymore....you just pay into it...without real benefits....

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