What is a decent wage for Winnipeg and Manitoba?

Miz point wrote:

grumpyrom wrote:How come there's never any generous women looking for adventurous males?

Well I would be happy to oblige once the coffers are full again.....a man for every purpose and task that a woman needs to be enacted upon.

Give according to one's ability, take according to one's need? ;-)

grumpy old man wrote:

grumpyrom wrote:Why do we bend rules to allow employers to bring in low wage workers in industries that are less desirable to Canadians depressing wages further in those industries, rather than allowing the market to work and forcing those employers to raise wages to a level that attracts workers?

If only Canadians would do those jobs. You conveniently ignore that Canadians won't do certain jobs. Like those meat packer jobs in Brandon. Or the farm workers in Portage La Prairie.

What do you propose Canadian business do?

Never mind, I know. Raise the wages right? It becomes a circular argument at this point.

How can you argue that the market knows best, and then ask what a business that can't find labour should do? Clearly the market is saying something isn't it?

I've already clearly stated, that according to the thoughts put forth by many on this board that allowing the market to decide in this scenerio would mean one of two things:

1) Come up with a way of finding an adequate labour supply, wether that be by raising wages, offering incentives, benefits or changing work conditions to make the work more attractive to applicants

OR

2) Follow the markets decision that you have failed and close up shop. If Canadian's won't do certain jobs then certainly it is an irrational business decision and an incredibly poor business plan to start an operation that does not have an adequate potential labour pool. If the wages/work conditions you offer don't attract enough labour obviously you have overestimated your ability to attract employees with your compensation package.

I don't think a viable 3rd option is to allow the importation of migrant workers thereby bypassing minimum wage laws in this country and depressing wages further in the affected industries.

Why is it that we don't let the market decide in certain industries where it's inconvinient?

LivingDead wrote:grumpyrom;

No system is 100% perfect. The socialists, capitalists, and communists all have their faults. They all become corrupt eventually, due to Human Nature. We are animals after all, and this is a "dog eat dog" world we live in.

Globalization...

Anyhow before I go off on a tangent. How would you deal with the fact that there are 2 billion Indians and Chinese that want what we have, and are willing to work for a fraction of what the lowest paid Canadian worker receives?

Would you go full into Protectionist mode? What would you do to fix what you perceive to be wrong? I don't ever want to experience what Germany experienced in the 1920's.

You forgetting about the massive reparation payments imposed on Germany by France and Britain after WWI which started the whole snowball of economic mess during the 20's Germany?

FlyingRat wrote:

Miz point wrote:

grumpyrom wrote:How come there's never any generous women looking for adventurous males?

Well I would be happy to oblige once the coffers are full again.....a man for every purpose and task that a woman needs to be enacted upon.

Give according to one's ability, take according to one's need? ;-)

I'm all for that in this scenerio :-P

grumpy old man wrote:

grumpyrom wrote:
Apparently letting the market decide is only an option if you can be succesfull. If you can't succeed by letting the market decide, then you bend the rules. Not enough labour available at the wages your offering then simply import workers or off shore the jobs.

If we were to truly let the markets decide then Maple Leaf as an example would have closed the plant in Brandon long ago.

You don't really believe this do you?

If there are 100,000 successful companies and 10 get "bailed out" would you claim the market is not working?

If Canadians really did let those jobs die then people like you grumpyrom would blame the government for not doing their jobs. Imagine the wrath from your union brothers and sisters!

I have asked in this discussion what your solutions are. LD also did. So tell us how the world would evolve if run by grumpyrom.

In short, distancing ourselves as far as possible from the failed economic policies of our neighbours to the south (which most of the right wing dearly embraces) and employing economic policies more closely linked to those of some of the northern Europeans (ie. the Scandinavians, France, Germany). In short a better balance between capitalist forces being the main economic policy drivers and placing more importance on social policies and (some) protectionism.

We have devolved to a system here where corporate forces control government rather than the other way around. Big business runs our government here just as it does in the US. The last thing we need is to embrace even more globalism and allow even more access to the 2 billion Indians and Chinese that LD alluded to that will eventually drive wages ever lower as our manufacturing jobs continue to migrate.

grumpyrom wrote:

grumpy old man wrote:

grumpyrom wrote:Why do we bend rules to allow employers to bring in low wage workers in industries that are less desirable to Canadians depressing wages further in those industries, rather than allowing the market to work and forcing those employers to raise wages to a level that attracts workers?

If only Canadians would do those jobs. You conveniently ignore that Canadians won't do certain jobs. Like those meat packer jobs in Brandon. Or the farm workers in Portage La Prairie.

What do you propose Canadian business do?

Never mind, I know. Raise the wages right? It becomes a circular argument at this point.

How can you argue that the market knows best, and then ask what a business that can't find labour should do? Clearly the market is saying something isn't it?

I've already clearly stated, that according to the thoughts put forth by many on this board that allowing the market to decide in this scenerio would mean one of two things:

1) Come up with a way of finding an adequate labour supply, wether that be by raising wages, offering incentives, benefits or changing work conditions to make the work more attractive to applicants

OR

2) Follow the markets decision that you have failed and close up shop. If Canadian's won't do certain jobs then certainly it is an irrational business decision and an incredibly poor business plan to start an operation that does not have an adequate potential labour pool. If the wages/work conditions you offer don't attract enough labour obviously you have overestimated your ability to attract employees with your compensation package.

I don't think a viable 3rd option is to allow the importation of migrant workers thereby bypassing minimum wage laws in this country and depressing wages further in the affected industries.

Why is it that we don't let the market decide in certain industries where it's inconvinient?

Isn't importing cheap labour better than exporting production?

We should be one world order. One standard minimum wage across the planet. Standard medical benefits, standard education.

Its the only way we will be able to collectively deal with attacking other planets for their resources.

grumpyrom wrote:
I don't think a viable 3rd option is to allow the importation of migrant workers thereby bypassing minimum wage laws in this country and depressing wages further in the affected industries.

Whoa whoa whoa. Nobody has suggested any laws are to be broken. Let's throw that out of the window now. Different discussion.

How many of the thousands of businesses in Canada need to import workers?

How many Canadian jobs are "lost" when a foreign worker is allowed into Canada, to do work Canadians won't do?

How is it any better for the average Canadian worker? Does he get a cut of the increased profits if wages are depressed by the imported labour?

What's wrong with allowing the market to decide (that wages are too low to attract workers) and paying for the true cost of production? Is that not an option?

We need to stop looking at foreign labour as the only answer to our problems.

grumpyrom wrote:
We need to stop looking at foreign labour as the only answer to our problems.

Why? So you can get paid more?

ha

grumpyrom wrote:How is it any better for the average Canadian worker? Does he get a cut of the increased profits if wages are depressed by the imported labour?

What's wrong with allowing the market to decide (that wages are too low to attract workers) and paying for the true cost of production? Is that not an option?

We need to stop looking at foreign labour as the only answer to our problems.

Come on grumpyrom. How many foreign workers are imported? Is this a problem in Canada? Quite making up problems where none really exist.

As for letting the market rule, we are. The market today does in fact decide how much people are paid and whether a company stay's in business or not. It also creates new jobs for Canadians and new Canadians alike.

Canada must allow ever-increasing immigration because we are aging as a society. For that matter, that is how Canada came to be. The reason you are even in this country grupmryrom is someone in your lineage decided to come to Canada to work and create a better lifestyle for themselves and (mostly) their children.

Where are these demons you are referring to?

FlyingRat wrote:

grumpyrom wrote:
We need to stop looking at foreign labour as the only answer to our problems.

Why? So you can get paid more?

Who says I'm unhappy with what I get paid? I'm very happy with my compensation package, however I don't think that because my situation is good that the same applies to all middle class workers.

I don't want to get paid more, I just don't want to see a future where my kids get paid less than me.

grumpy old man wrote:

grumpyrom wrote:How is it any better for the average Canadian worker? Does he get a cut of the increased profits if wages are depressed by the imported labour?

What's wrong with allowing the market to decide (that wages are too low to attract workers) and paying for the true cost of production? Is that not an option?

We need to stop looking at foreign labour as the only answer to our problems.

Come on grumpyrom. How many foreign workers are imported? Is this a problem in Canada? Quite making up problems where none really exist.

As for letting the market rule, we are. The market today does in fact decide how much people are paid and whether a company stay's in business or not. It also creates new jobs for Canadians and new Canadians alike.

Canada must allow ever-increasing immigration because we are aging as a society. For that matter, that is how Canada came to be. The reason you are even in this country grupmryrom is someone in your lineage decided to come to Canada to work and create a better lifestyle for themselves and (mostly) their children.

Where are these demons you are referring to?

GOM, I was referring to foreign labour in general not only pertaining to migrant workers. For the record I think permanent immigration is a good thing. It's offshoring production and migrant workers I have issues with.

How many goods that were manufactured in Canada are no longer made in Canada due to NAFTA and the ease with which jobs are now moved overseas? Globalization is a giant race to the bottom that absolutely destroys wages long term in developed nations. That is the foreign labour I'm worried about, not immigrants establishing themselves in Canada.

There a numerous documentaries online that deal with the topics of globalization and the global race to the bottom if your interested to look for them. I'm not going into it any further here.

ALL the world should have one minimum wage. Unions alone are large enough across the planet to be able to force that minimum wage on the world by refusing absolutely REFUSING to buy one single item that is made using anyone earning a wage less then the established world minimum.

Unions are powerful, they need to put their money and their power where their mouth is.

grumpyrom wrote:GOM, I was referring to foreign labour in general not only pertaining to migrant workers. For the record I think permanent immigration is a good thing. It's offshoring production and migrant workers I have issues with.

How many goods that were manufactured in Canada are no longer made in Canada due to NAFTA and the ease with which jobs are now moved overseas? Globalization is a giant race to the bottom that absolutely destroys wages long term in developed nations. That is the foreign labour I'm worried about, not immigrants establishing themselves in Canada.

There a numerous documentaries online that deal with the topics of globalization and the global race to the bottom if your interested to look for them. I'm not going into it any further here.

I don't understand. This is the place to discuss such things.

I'm fully aware of off-shore production and that it has an impact on Canadian jobs. But you are changing the subject again.

You were arguing the issue of allowing foreign workers to take the jobs of Canadians not off-shore production.

You have to try to think big picture here.

Say I build widgets and pay my production staff $25/hour. Now say my competitor across the street also builds widgets, but he outsources them to India at a cost of $10 an hour. I'm pooched. I either lower my production costs or I out-source my labour or I close my doors.

In your world Canada stops those $10 an hour produced widgets allowing me to keep my doors open. Good for me.

But frick you Mr. Consumer because you now will pay a whole lot more for my widgets.

OR... Same scenario, but my competitor across the street is a non-unionized manufacturer but his labour costs are 2/3rds mine. Same scenario. He sells more cheaply and I have other decisions to make.

This is the real world. It is the very reason we buy stuff today at prices a fraction our parents paid. It is also the reason products improve (in both quality and in features).

Competition rules.

Now quit changing the subject.

Thank goodness that we need real people driving taxi cabs!!

So the question remains unanswered!
1) What does a high school student with experience at Wendy's or McDonalds start out in a job they know nothing about?

2) What does a University graduate with an atrs degree start out at in the same job?

3) What does a fine arts degree graduate with 10 years experience working in a Museum with artifact restoration, at age 46 , start out at in the same job?

Does a company start the high schooler at $9, the arts student at $13 and the 46 year old at $18 per hour??

Tell me, because that is what I have looked at the last 3 weeks, in trying to hire some one to come to work for me to train.

rosencrentz wrote:So the question remains unanswered!
1) What does a high school student with experience at Wendy's or McDonalds start out in a job they know nothing about?

2) What does a University graduate with an atrs degree start out at in the same job?

3) What does a fine arts degree graduate with 10 years experience working in a Museum with artifact restoration, at age 46 , start out at in the same job?

Does a company start the high schooler at $9, the arts student at $13 and the 46 year old at $18 per hour??

Tell me, because that is what I have looked at the last 3 weeks, in trying to hire some one to come to work for me to train.

The wage differential would only apply if they bring some added value from education and/or expereince to the job. If this was a job chopping down trees they would probably all have to start at the same wage if they had the same tree chopping expereince. Then provide a bonus according to who chops the most trees in a day.

Rosie...I think it would depend on what you want.

If you want a labourer...I'd say minimum wage plus 10% is your best target.
You'll get someone who knows their job is only to hammer nails, staple fabric, sweep the floor.

If you're looking for an apprentice...then you need to target that market.
You don't want to pay them too much, or they'll assume you're making more than you are.
You don't want to pay too little, because they'll take the training then jump to a competitor to make more money using the training you offered.

Is there anyone else in Winnipeg who offers your service?
Are you able to find out what they pay their staff?

If you're unsure of what you should pay...maybe decide how much you WILL pay.
Set a maximum for yourself...say $15/hour for an apprentice...and then list the job without a salary listed.

When people come in for the interviews...you can ask them how much they would expect to earn.

MOST people will short-change themselves for fear of not getting the job...but would be looking for more.

So if someone says "I'm looking for $14/hour"...and they seem otherwise a reasonable candidate...you can offer them $14.35/hour and they think you're a god.

To give you an idea of what we hire our construction workers at:
BAREBONES laborer (High School Student, NO experience) - $13/hour
A little experience (been on a site or two) - $15/hour
Training tickets from school, or OTJ experience WITH our company - up to $25/hour

grumpyrom wrote:

LivingDead wrote:grumpyrom;

No system is 100% perfect. The socialists, capitalists, and communists all have their faults. They all become corrupt eventually, due to Human Nature. We are animals after all, and this is a "dog eat dog" world we live in.

Globalization...

Anyhow before I go off on a tangent. How would you deal with the fact that there are 2 billion Indians and Chinese that want what we have, and are willing to work for a fraction of what the lowest paid Canadian worker receives?

Would you go full into Protectionist mode? What would you do to fix what you perceive to be wrong? I don't ever want to experience what Germany experienced in the 1920's.

You forgetting about the massive reparation payments imposed on Germany by France and Britain after WWI which started the whole snowball of economic mess during the 20's Germany?

Nope not forgetting. Eventually China and Middle Eastern Oil Barons will come a calling upon the USA to pay their debt. USA is the #1 consumer of Canadian resources and #1 trade partner. When they can no longer afford to buy from us, the bottom will fall out of commodities, China and Russia are hoarding resources for just such an eventuality. Prices will crash and Canada will get sucked into the Great Black Hole that was the US economy.

But maybe that is what this world needs. The world needs the sh1t to hit the fan for a number of reasons.

1. cull the herd.
   
2. re distribute wealth and power.
   
3. eliminate the weak.

on a side note. I heard Unions were the cause of the British Empire's decline. In your opinion is this true?

Anyhow, the ogvernment has no business meddling. I say start trimming the FAT, BLOATED, and LAZY excess from what has become our Union Led Bureaucratic nightmare of a government.

Deank wrote:ALL the world should have one minimum wage. Unions alone are large enough across the planet to be able to force that minimum wage on the world by refusing absolutely REFUSING to buy one single item that is made using anyone earning a wage less then the established world minimum.

Unions are powerful, they need to put their money and their power where their mouth is.

Problem with that is, like everything else humans are involved in, people at the top want to eat cake and have it too.

The heads of unions are easily swayed by bribes, kickbacks etc...

LivingDead wrote:

grumpyrom wrote:

LivingDead wrote:grumpyrom;

No system is 100% perfect. The socialists, capitalists, and communists all have their faults. They all become corrupt eventually, due to Human Nature. We are animals after all, and this is a "dog eat dog" world we live in.

Globalization...

Anyhow before I go off on a tangent. How would you deal with the fact that there are 2 billion Indians and Chinese that want what we have, and are willing to work for a fraction of what the lowest paid Canadian worker receives?

Would you go full into Protectionist mode? What would you do to fix what you perceive to be wrong? I don't ever want to experience what Germany experienced in the 1920's.

You forgetting about the massive reparation payments imposed on Germany by France and Britain after WWI which started the whole snowball of economic mess during the 20's Germany?

Nope not forgetting. Eventually China and Middle Eastern Oil Barons will come a calling upon the USA to pay their debt. USA is the #1 consumer of Canadian resources and #1 trade partner. When they can no longer afford to buy from us, the bottom will fall out of commodities, China and Russia are hoarding resources for just such an eventuality. Prices will crash and Canada will get sucked into the Great Black Hole that was the US economy.

But maybe that is what this world needs. The world needs the sh1t to hit the fan for a number of reasons.

1. cull the herd.
   
2. re distribute wealth and power.
   
3. eliminate the weak.
   

on a side note. I heard Unions were the cause of the British Empire's decline. In your opinion is this true?

Anyhow, the ogvernment has no business meddling. I say start trimming the FAT, BLOATED, and LAZY excess from what has become our Union Led Bureaucratic nightmare of a government.

This may sound harsh to some, but I'm generally with this line of thinking with what's been happening lately. Canada should have been actively looking for more foreign trading partners ages ago, but at some point what you said will be coming to a head. We're gonna get quite a smack when it does.

I'm also for market deciding what decent wage is. I believe that people looking to the government to set such a thing is inherently wrong. As it is, they're generally out of touch of what the people want, especially in the marketplace. Demand for items/services is created by the population, and people need to motivate themselves to the decisions of putting themselves in position to be a part of the market. ie. - training for jobs in up and coming fields, competing for said jobs, entrepreneurship being important in the creation of new things, and eventually new businesses that will bring in more jobs etc etc.

However, if the government tells people that "x" should be the living wage for everyone, what on earth would motivate anyone to work harder, or creative, innovate?

It was reported a couple years back that Canada had indeed changed her dependence on trade with the US. Increase trade with Europe, China and India have mitigated some of the risk of too great a dependence on the US market.

Canada has led trade delegations to other non-traditional markets since and has made inroads. However, Canada does have too great an exposure to the whims of the US market. It will be forever thus for so many reasons. Proximity being the primary driving force.

Northlands wrote:

LivingDead wrote:

grumpyrom wrote:

LivingDead wrote:grumpyrom;

No system is 100% perfect. The socialists, capitalists, and communists all have their faults. They all become corrupt eventually, due to Human Nature. We are animals after all, and this is a "dog eat dog" world we live in.

Globalization...

Anyhow before I go off on a tangent. How would you deal with the fact that there are 2 billion Indians and Chinese that want what we have, and are willing to work for a fraction of what the lowest paid Canadian worker receives?

Would you go full into Protectionist mode? What would you do to fix what you perceive to be wrong? I don't ever want to experience what Germany experienced in the 1920's.

You forgetting about the massive reparation payments imposed on Germany by France and Britain after WWI which started the whole snowball of economic mess during the 20's Germany?

Nope not forgetting. Eventually China and Middle Eastern Oil Barons will come a calling upon the USA to pay their debt. USA is the #1 consumer of Canadian resources and #1 trade partner. When they can no longer afford to buy from us, the bottom will fall out of commodities, China and Russia are hoarding resources for just such an eventuality. Prices will crash and Canada will get sucked into the Great Black Hole that was the US economy.

But maybe that is what this world needs. The world needs the sh1t to hit the fan for a number of reasons.

1. cull the herd.
   
2. re distribute wealth and power.
   
3. eliminate the weak.
   

on a side note. I heard Unions were the cause of the British Empire's decline. In your opinion is this true?

Anyhow, the ogvernment has no business meddling. I say start trimming the FAT, BLOATED, and LAZY excess from what has become our Union Led Bureaucratic nightmare of a government.

This may sound harsh to some, but I'm generally with this line of thinking with what's been happening lately. Canada should have been actively looking for more foreign trading partners ages ago, but at some point what you said will be coming to a head. We're gonna get quite a smack when it does.

I'm also for market deciding what decent wage is. I believe that people looking to the government to set such a thing is inherently wrong. As it is, they're generally out of touch of what the people want, especially in the marketplace. Demand for items/services is created by the population, and people need to motivate themselves to the decisions of putting themselves in position to be a part of the market. ie. - training for jobs in up and coming fields, competing for said jobs, entrepreneurship being important in the creation of new things, and eventually new businesses that will bring in more jobs etc etc.

However, if the government tells people that "x" should be the living wage for everyone, what on earth would motivate anyone to work harder, or creative, innovate?

Would you be willing to take a pay cut if the boss said your weren't worth what you are paid, and wanted to drop your pay 15 tho a year . I use this figure just as a starting point . After all what would stop this if we allow employers to take over complete control of the pay scale . Well I do agree with some of what you say I see many hazards to it .

We should only trade with hot nubile red head women. Whatever they want they get for free. Everything else we keep here in Canada and we have no imports (other then the hot nubile red head women)