What is a decent wage for Winnipeg and Manitoba?

grumpy old man wrote:What is a decent wage for Winnipeg and Manitoba?

$0.00 / hr

We need to get rid of the money system, and instead help each other (barter system).

Food should be grown locally and be FREE (take what you need) rather than buying from the large multi-national supermarket co's.

All humans have a talent or two, and we can use these talents to help one another, and together make "the world a better place" (in the words of MJ).

That would prove interesting...

The barter net system has been around for awhile.....I do not know if it is still happening but it was a neat idea. I believe that there were warnings given by Canada Revenue Agency at its height with regard to GST issues and possible legal actions that could be undertaken on those individuals who were active participants.

In my world, there would be no monthly fees for telephone because once the infrastructure is paid for (fibre optics, and cabling) they last for a very very long time. Why pay $37+/month.

Water is part of nature. Why are we paying for it?

All Property Taxes should be abolished. Pay (thru barter) for a home, and it's yours.

I remember there is/was some sort of barter shop in Osborne Vill. but not sure if it's still operating or not.

There's one on Sargent Ave.

http://www.winnipegbarter.com/BarterStore.html

jimj_wpg wrote:

grumpy old man wrote:What is a decent wage for Winnipeg and Manitoba?

$0.00 / hr

We need to get rid of the money system, and instead help each other (barter system).

Food should be grown locally and be FREE (take what you need) rather than buying from the large multi-national supermarket co's.

All humans have a talent or two, and we can use these talents to help one another, and together make "the world a better place" (in the words of MJ).

I agree 100% in theory. Unfortunately most people just can't get there heads around the question "why would anyone do anything if their was no profit motive"? Human greed always wins out in the end. To propose any other alternative to our present economic system is too communist for most.

Your idea is precisely what Jaque Fresco proposes with his resource based economy promoted by The Venus Project and made popular with the Zeitgeist films on Youtube.

It's like the roads. Once they are built why invest anything more in them?

grumpyrom wrote:

jimj_wpg wrote:

grumpy old man wrote:What is a decent wage for Winnipeg and Manitoba?

$0.00 / hr

We need to get rid of the money system, and instead help each other (barter system).

Food should be grown locally and be FREE (take what you need) rather than buying from the large multi-national supermarket co's.

All humans have a talent or two, and we can use these talents to help one another, and together make "the world a better place" (in the words of MJ).

I agree 100% in theory. Unfortunately most people just can't get their heads around the question "why would anyone do anything if their was no profit motive"? Human greed always wins out in the end. To propose any other alternative to our present economic system is too communist for most.

Your idea is precisely what Jaque Fresco proposes with his resource based economy promoted by The Venus Project and made popular with the Zeitgeist films on Youtube.

What happens if you've nothing left to barter with? What happens when you're 75 and cannot work-off a barter for food and accommodation?

We really do need to lose the notion that people want to earn more is a bad thing (greed). I for years have traded (bartered) my labour and expertise for cash. I have then traded (bartered) my cash for other things I need, like food and gasoline and housing and beer.

I have also stored some of my bartered cash, for a time later in life that I will be less able, or less willing, to trade my labour.

Not everyone is greedy. And painting most people with that same brush is hogwash.

I was just stating the obvious GOM, that it would be incredibly difficult to change our current monetary system to anything but the current system due to the changes in human psychology caused by 100's of years of capitalism and profit motive being the main driving forces of our survival. Since 99% of us have never known anything else, most of us can't grasp the idea that anything else is even remotely possible.

The ideas jimj was proposing have been practised on much smaller scales at many points throughout human history and in fact are still practised culturally in places like Tahiti and Fiji where culturally personal ownership of anything is not the traditional norm. You need a chicken from your neighbour then you ask, and vice versa. With no trade required. Imagine that cultures that survived for 100's of years with no barter system, no money and no trade because they were rich in resources and had no need for it. Under that type of system you don't need to squirell away your bartered currency for old age, because their is no requirement to barter one item for any other item.

But like I said, due to our own ingrained cultural beliefs that type of system is far too alien for most of us to ever seriously consider.

Will chef for good wine, a teeth cleaning and X-ray, possible fabulous trips to exotic locales (oops, that is another job) will entertain you for??? Hmmmm.....I think some of those offers are already on Craigslist and they begin with "kind and VERY generous gentleman looking for a lady with an adventurous spirit".....you read between the lines....hahahahaha

Miz P I have a barter deal for you (to hell with CRA). I have a 50 pound sack of potatoes. 1/2 I'll mash for your brew and the other half you can cook up with the cow roast that my neighbours giving me tonight for borrowing my John Deere. Now that's a strong economy. The only party adversely affected is the useless one standing in the middle expecting their commission.

What will I get for the great sofas , made in Winnipeg? What will the sewer, the upholsterer, the frame builder, the supplier of cotton, glue, screws, machinery, electrcity, the cutter, rubber foam, all get?
The profit system works , and the barter system is pretty well impossible to sustain, because we need money for payments on our house, apartment, water and electric bills.

How come there's never any generous women looking for adventurous males?

The last, true, un-serviced market. Let's get on it.

Jondo wrote:Miz P I have a barter deal for you (to hell with CRA). I have a 50 pound sack of potatoes. 1/2 I'll mash for your brew and the other half you can cook up with the cow roast that my neighbours giving me tonight for borrowing my John Deere. Now that's a strong economy. The only party adversely affected is the useless one standing in the middle expecting their commission.

Brew? I have never attempted to make vodka.....could be a neat exercise though. As to cooking your spuds, blanch them, let them cool then cut them up and roast them in olive oil and herbs....keep the peels on them. How much should I charge for that advice? hahahah

grumpyrom wrote:How come there's never any generous women looking for adventurous males?

Well I would be happy to oblige once the coffers are full again.....a man for every purpose and task that a woman needs to be enacted upon.

I'm not willing to invest too much of my faith in "the market".

IMO this all mighty "market rules all" system is too easily rigged and/or gamed by those who hold the strings of power. Don't forget, it's also easily penetrated by lobbyist groups and special interests with mega profits at stake.

Considering this current system is the only one I've ever known, it's too pie in the sky for little'ol me to propose something better. Instead, I'd rather attempt to fix or patch the existing system, if at all possible.

But then again, I'm just a 20 something sysadmin, what do I know.

You mean it's allegations like the ones re: Goldman Sachs might be true JT? I find it highly unlikely that the major players on Wall Street and Bay Street would be involved in those types of activities. I mean it's not like you an make billions of dollars by rigging the markets is it?

Allegations, and with the American sysytem of absolutely no laws, "they will self regulate" (according to Bush and Cheney), they will be arguing this for the next 8 years .

The American system has very few checks and balances as does our more conservative system.
Our Banks got into trouble, onle because they bought those phoney packages of mortgages, sold to them by American crooks!
I think our Banks had to write off 10 billion??, luckily all our Banks did was increase bank charges to cover their losses!

A decent wage should be determined by the markets, not by Governments or Labor Unions.

I wonder why nobody ever learns the "cant have your cake and eat it" lesson.

That's all good and fine if you subscribe to the notion that "the market knows best". Just a quick question, if the market knows best then why are taxpayers on the hook for bailouts every time things turn sour? Why do we bend rules to allow employers to bring in low wage workers in industries that are less desirable to Canadians depressing wages further in those industries, rather than allowing the market to work and forcing those employers to raise wages to a level that attracts workers?

Without government intervention and minimum wage laws you'd have a reverse auction where you'd be bidding for your job by seeing who is willing to work for the lowest wage possible. If all else fails and you can't get enough labour at the wages your offering you can always import some cheap out of country labour like Maple Leaf in Brandon. Why don't we let the market decide when it comes to operations like the kill plant in Brandon? Can't get enough local workers at the wages your offering then you have 2 choices, raise wages to a level that attracts applicants or go out of business.

Apparently letting the market decide is only an option if you can be succesfull. If you can't succeed by letting the market decide, then you bend the rules. Not enough labour available at the wages your offering then simply import workers or off shore the jobs.

If we were to truly let the markets decide then Maple Leaf as an example would have closed the plant in Brandon long ago.

grumpyrom;

No system is 100% perfect. The socialists, capitalists, and communists all have their faults. They all become corrupt eventually, due to Human Nature. We are animals after all, and this is a "dog eat dog" world we live in.

Globalization...

Anyhow before I go off on a tangent. How would you deal with the fact that there are 2 billion Indians and Chinese that want what we have, and are willing to work for a fraction of what the lowest paid Canadian worker receives?

Would you go full into Protectionist mode? What would you do to fix what you perceive to be wrong? I don't ever want to experience what Germany experienced in the 1920's.

grumpyrom wrote:That's all good and fine if you subscribe to the notion that "the market knows best". Just a quick question, if the market knows best then why are taxpayers on the hook for bailouts every time things turn sour?

Here's the thing. You're picking and choosing what's wrong with a system that has for several generations served most Canadians very very well. Yourself included I'm sure.

You ask "why are taxpayers on the hook for bailouts every time things turn sour". We're not. The people you and I elected make these kind of decisions everyday. Now if we mosey into your world, look what the government did in the automotive sector that saved all those "union" jobs.

So choices are made: let a company die, and lose the associated jobs and tax revenues of lend a hand and maybe save those jobs.

grumpyrom wrote:Why do we bend rules to allow employers to bring in low wage workers in industries that are less desirable to Canadians depressing wages further in those industries, rather than allowing the market to work and forcing those employers to raise wages to a level that attracts workers?

If only Canadians would do those jobs. You conveniently ignore that Canadians won't do certain jobs. Like those meat packer jobs in Brandon. Or the farm workers in Portage La Prairie.

What do you propose Canadian business do?

Never mind, I know. Raise the wages right? It becomes a circular argument at this point.

grumpyrom wrote:
Apparently letting the market decide is only an option if you can be succesfull. If you can't succeed by letting the market decide, then you bend the rules. Not enough labour available at the wages your offering then simply import workers or off shore the jobs.

If we were to truly let the markets decide then Maple Leaf as an example would have closed the plant in Brandon long ago.

You don't really believe this do you?

If there are 100,000 successful companies and 10 get "bailed out" would you claim the market is not working?

If Canadians really did let those jobs die then people like you grumpyrom would blame the government for not doing their jobs. Imagine the wrath from your union brothers and sisters!

I have asked in this discussion what your solutions are. LD also did. So tell us how the world would evolve if run by grumpyrom.

Miz point wrote:

grumpyrom wrote:How come there's never any generous women looking for adventurous males?

Well I would be happy to oblige once the coffers are full again.....a man for every purpose and task that a woman needs to be enacted upon.

Give according to one's ability, take according to one's need? ;-)