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the winnipeg sandbox » winnipeg sandbox.. » local... » Police budgets......

Police budgets......

+4
grumpy old man
AdamX
umcrouc0
Deank
8 posters

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1Police budgets...... Empty Police budgets...... Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:38 am

Deank

Deank
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soo...how come in other areas police are having vehicles seized because they can no longer afford them and need to make various other cutbacks. But here in Canada/Manitoba/Winnipeg there does not really seem to be much of a budget process. Just well this is what we need to run so give it to us?

Case in point the police recently saw a huge budget shortfall do to a drastic decrease in fine revenue. What is the response? Just get more money from council then orginally budgeted for.

Is that right? Do we want to just "throw" money and the police force and hope it sticks in the right place?

2Police budgets...... Empty Re: Police budgets...... Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:53 pm

umcrouc0

umcrouc0
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And the alternative is? Cutback a police force that already seems understaffed to deal with the city's problems?

3Police budgets...... Empty Re: Police budgets...... Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:56 pm

Deank

Deank
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1. Proper budgetting in the first place.

2. Proper use of existing resources.


3ish.... we are NOT understaffed. We have too many people employed on the police force, too much overtime and no accountability ( when it comes to budget )

4Police budgets...... Empty Re: Police budgets...... Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:59 pm

umcrouc0

umcrouc0
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We have too many employees working too many hours?

5Police budgets...... Empty Re: Police budgets...... Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:04 pm

Deank

Deank
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yup improper use of resources usually causes exactly that.

6Police budgets...... Empty Re: Police budgets...... Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:05 pm

umcrouc0

umcrouc0
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Is there an audit or something to back that up? Not saying it's wrong, but can you show that it's correct?

7Police budgets...... Empty Re: Police budgets...... Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:06 pm

Deank

Deank
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thats one of the problems. They are not accountable. I can only base that on the fact of how much money we spend on the police force, how many officers we have per capita and how low their closure rate is.

8Police budgets...... Empty Re: Police budgets...... Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:10 pm

Deank

Deank
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contributor eminence

what this city needs is effeciency experts to exam every job within the city.

what is it you would say you do here....

well look I ALREADY TOLD YOU!.... I deal with the goddamn customers so the engineers don't have to... I HAVE PEOPLE SKILLS!!!... i am good at dealing with people can't you understand that?? WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE!!!

do we need to let people go? Not sure about that, but we certainly could increase their output/effeciency.

9Police budgets...... Empty Re: Police budgets...... Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:12 pm

AdamX

AdamX
contributor
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Deank wrote:thats one of the problems. They are not accountable. I can only base that on the fact of how much money we spend on the police force, how many officers we have per capita and how low their closure rate is.

what exactly are those stats? since you have them handy

and how do they compare to other police forces to make us think that ours are so inefficient?

http://www.cakefarter.com

10Police budgets...... Empty Re: Police budgets...... Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:15 pm

Deank

Deank
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they are in the polce force annual report. ( http://winnipeg.ca/police/AnnualReports/annualreports.stm )

this is compared to information available on statscan as well as other communities police forces annual reports.

11Police budgets...... Empty Re: Police budgets...... Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:20 pm

AdamX

AdamX
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aw come on, thats no fun, i dont wanna go searching, your the one making claims of improper budgeting and inefficiency Razz

not saying that i disagree with you, it would just be interesting to see how we do compared to other cities

http://www.cakefarter.com

12Police budgets...... Empty Re: Police budgets...... Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:29 pm

umcrouc0

umcrouc0
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Here's a link to a statscan report on officers and costs across canada: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-225-x/85-225-x2008000-eng.pdf
A lot of the real info is lost in the stats but compared with other similar sized cities I wouldn't say that we are spending too much on police. But stats can be misleading.

13Police budgets...... Empty Re: Police budgets...... Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:35 pm

grumpy old man

grumpy old man
administrator
administrator

I think we can argue any large public bureaucracy is inefficient. Add in the unions and it is a recipe of low (ish) productivity.

I know this will cause some to rise up in anger. Just be civil and polite... Smile

14Police budgets...... Empty Re: Police budgets...... Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:04 pm

umcrouc0

umcrouc0
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I'd extend that to any large organization is inefficient. Public bureaucracy definitely is, but if we subjected large private companies to the same scrutiny that we have for the public sector I think a great deal of them would look no better. Just my opinion.

15Police budgets...... Empty Re: Police budgets...... Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:07 pm

Deank

Deank
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contributor eminence

could be very true umcourc0, however one big difference is that the goal of large private companies is generally to make money and would hopefully do everything they could to make themselves the most money.

Where as public ones are supposed to operate cheaply but we all know from experience that is seldom the case.

If there is nothing the hide then the police service would have no reason whatsoever to object to effeciency experts investigating them Smile

16Police budgets...... Empty Re: Police budgets...... Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:10 pm

Freeman

Freeman
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Big difference is that private companies are just that, private. People invest in them, or buy from them, by choice.

17Police budgets...... Empty Re: Police budgets...... Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:15 pm

umcrouc0

umcrouc0
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Yup. They shouldn't have any problem doing that.

IMO a lot of the financial accountability that goes along with using public money makes it a lot less efficient because of the way that everything needs to be tracked and allocated for, then audited afterwards. But because we don't really trust them to just do their work without going back and checking over it all the time I think that we are forcing the public sector to often be much more inefficient than they actually need to be. But there are definitely a lot of inefficiencies in the system aside from that.

18Police budgets...... Empty Re: Police budgets...... Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:18 pm

umcrouc0

umcrouc0
contributor plus
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Freeman wrote:Big difference is that private companies are just that, private. People invest in them, or buy from them, by choice.

True. I'm just saying that it sometimes seems like we expect the public sector to operate in a way that isn't realistic for an organization of it's size. And we say it's 'inefficient', but that's a relative term. So, 'inefficient' compared to what?

19Police budgets...... Empty Re: Police budgets...... Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:19 pm

grumpy old man

grumpy old man
administrator
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Coming from a large private organizational background I can attest to both constant productivity and cost management efforts.

I know we were ALWAYS looking to increase headcount and it was like pulling teeth. The way it ought to be. We had to write a bulletproof business case for all headcounts. We always hated when people left as we were never guaranteed a replacement. And when sales decreased there were ALWAYS head count reductions (through layoffs and attrition).

One would hope that public companies operate the same way. But unions always get in the way. Especially when trying to move people around instead of just laying them off.



Last edited by grumpy old man on Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:41 pm; edited 1 time in total

20Police budgets...... Empty Re: Police budgets...... Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:20 pm

Miz point

Miz point
uber-contributor
uber-contributor

Deank wrote:what this city needs is effeciency experts to exam every job within the city.

what is it you would say you do here....

well look I ALREADY TOLD YOU!.... I deal with the goddamn customers so the engineers don't have to... I HAVE PEOPLE SKILLS!!!... i am good at dealing with people can't you understand that?? WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE!!!

do we need to let people go? Not sure about that, but we certainly could increase their output/effeciency.

Great Office Space quote.....

http://www.granhotelflores.blogspot.com

21Police budgets...... Empty Re: Police budgets...... Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:23 pm

Deank

Deank
contributor eminence
contributor eminence

umcrouc0 wrote:Yup. They shouldn't have any problem doing that.

IMO a lot of the financial accountability that goes along with using public money makes it a lot less efficient because of the way that everything needs to be tracked and allocated for, then audited afterwards. But because we don't really trust them to just do their work without going back and checking over it all the time I think that we are forcing the public sector to often be much more inefficient than they actually need to be. But there are definitely a lot of inefficiencies in the system aside from that.

see but here is the thing. I am not really talking about the organization as a whole. I am talking about individual people, or job categories. 1 cop costs us X dollars..and that cops salary is based on being the average of the top 6 or whatever cop salaries from across the country.. Okay fine whatever... Now what do we get fox X? Whats that cop do? Could he be doing it better? How? How does that cops performance rate when compared to the top 6 from across the country?

22Police budgets...... Empty Re: Police budgets...... Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:29 pm

umcrouc0

umcrouc0
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That would be an interesting thing to see. But how do you measure the performance of a cop in one city against that of a cop in another city? If there are different levels of other resources between the compared cities it's really tough to compare because their working conditions are different.

23Police budgets...... Empty Re: Police budgets...... Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:41 pm

Deank

Deank
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contributor eminence

dont know until we try.

24Police budgets...... Empty Re: Police budgets...... Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:42 pm

Deank

Deank
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contributor eminence

also... if we cant compare jobs... why are we comparing salaries Wink

25Police budgets...... Empty Re: Police budgets...... Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:44 pm

grumpy old man

grumpy old man
administrator
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umcrouc0 wrote:That would be an interesting thing to see. But how do you measure the performance of a cop in one city against that of a cop in another city? If there are different levels of other resources between the compared cities it's really tough to compare because their working conditions are different.
The WPS is always bragging about their accreditation.

"An Internationally Accredited Law Enforcement Agency"
http://www.calea.org/

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