Should all road users pay road tax? If so, how much should it be for cyclists ?

grumpy old man wrote:

Miz point wrote:How many pedestrians are injured or killed by motorists???? I would hazard a guess and say a damned sight more than are injured or killed by cyclists.

So what? What has that to do with the price of tea in China.

Please go away and do extensive research. Discover how many motorists and cyclists are on the streets. Then calculate how many cyclists are killed by motorists. Then do the exact same math with pedestrians and cyclists.

Then do the same math but include the calculations of cyclists that are killed by motorists that are the cyclists fault. Then do the same with pedestrians and cyclists.

See ya in a couple days.

I am so gonna spank your ass GOM if it is the last thing I freakin' do......smart ass.

Cyclists appear to all hate cars passing them too closely, but almost all cyclists pass very, very closely when the cars are waiting at a red light....making the cars have to pass them again and again. [end rant]

LivingDead wrote:
Insurance. Cyclists need insurance and they need to follow the laws of the road. Think about it. MPI has crazy rates for motorcyclists. The rates for non-powed cycles should be frigging astronomical if you use MPI's though processes.

Do you know why they have crazy rates for motorcycles? Because their insurance model assigns all costs related to motorcycle accidents to motorcycle accidents to motorcycle class regardless of who is at fault (car/motorcycle). If MPIs model was fair and representative, motorcycle costs should go down and vehicle costs should go up.
As for pedestrian/cyclist collisions. If a cyclist causes a pedestrian injury - should they be held responsible? yes, if they are responsible for the accident.
Hypothetically, if I am riding on a sidewalk and I ride into a pedestrian, then yes it is my fault and I should be held responsible. But what about the more common scenario? Where the pedestrian steps off the curb in fron tof the cyclist without looking ( or better yet, looking and stepping off anyway), or a cyclist passing a pedestrian on a MUP on the left and calling 'on your left' and/or using a horn/bell and having the pedestrian walk right in front of them anyway? Do we licence and insure pedestrians as well?

grumpy old man wrote:

Miz point wrote:I will pay when motorists realize that I too have to follow the same rules, am given the same courtesies when signalling a lane change so I can f*cking turn without getting killed, am not run over by buses in lanes where it is clearly marked that i too have priority, am not yelled at to get on the sidewalk where i belong by idiot motorists....my list of complaints is long.....I follow the rules almost slavishly and many times I have been injured by thoughtless motorists who when clearly in the wrong still choose to rebuke me.....I will pay when there are more bike trails....

We have been asking for decent trails for well over thirty years.....yesterday's announcement elicited a whoop de do response from me...should have been done years ago.....

I've said this before and I'll say this until my dying breath: cyclists break far more rules every single day than cars do. Almost every cyclist I see goes through the red lights. Almost every cyclist I see passes me on the right. Almost every cyclist I see rides on the sidewalk.

So go ahead and be all indignant-like but you are so very wrong on this notion that car drivers are the evilist peeps on the road. It simply is not true.

Yes it is yes it is yes it is yes it is......I follow the rules to a T......many of my cohorts do as well and when we cycle or drive a car and see another cyclist ignoring the laws we call them out on it....I know there are scofflaws but it would be really nice if some motorists out there would reacquaint themselves with the laws regarding cyclists, roads and cars.....two way goddamned street right?

[quote="Miz point"]

LivingDead wrote:
Why are you so worried about a cyclist scratching your car? chances are if its scratched it is because of some vandal or idiot in a parking lot perpetrating the act...if a cyclist does this to you perhaps you are not giving him/her enough room? There is a law regarding that......you may want to look it up.

You've completed that research already?

Chances are it is scratched because the cyclist passed him on the right. There are laws against that and I can safely say far more cyclists do that than motorists squeeze out cyclists.

JTF wrote:Cyclists appear to all hate cars passing them too closely, but almost all cyclists pass very, very closely when the cars are waiting at a red light....making the cars have to pass them again and again. [end rant]

Seems a cyclist that acts like a dumbass is amoung us eh...lol. Seems some don't know what the rules of the road really are.

St Norberter wrote:

LivingDead wrote:
Insurance. Cyclists need insurance and they need to follow the laws of the road. Think about it. MPI has crazy rates for motorcyclists. The rates for non-powed cycles should be frigging astronomical if you use MPI's though processes.

Do you know why they have crazy rates for motorcycles? Because their insurance model assigns all costs related to motorcycle accidents to motorcycle accidents to motorcycle class regardless of who is at fault (car/motorcycle). If MPIs model was fair and representative, motorcycle costs should go down and vehicle costs should go up.
As for pedestrian/cyclist collisions. If a cyclist causes a pedestrian injury - should they be held responsible? yes, if they are responsible for the accident.
Hypothetically, if I am riding on a sidewalk and I ride into a pedestrian, then yes it is my fault and I should be held responsible. But what about the more common scenario? Where the pedestrian steps off the curb in fron tof the cyclist without looking ( or better yet, looking and stepping off anyway), or a cyclist passing a pedestrian on a MUP on the left and calling 'on your left' and/or using a horn/bell and having the pedestrian walk right in front of them anyway? Do we licence and insure pedestrians as well?

Thanks for citing those examples as that bullshit happens to me everyday......even other cyclists on MUP I have had to rebuke for not shouting out the "on your left" phrase....I always do and for the most part I get thanked.....it is just good safety sense.

grumpy old man wrote:
I've said this before and I'll say this until my dying breath: cyclists break far more rules every single day than cars do. Almost every cyclist I see goes through the red lights. Almost every cyclist I see passes me on the right. Almost every cyclist I see rides on the sidewalk.

So go ahead and be all indignant-like but you are so very wrong on this notion that car drivers are the evilist peeps on the road. It simply is not true.

There are bad cyclists and bad drivers. But your statement above is incorrect without a qualifier. You're probably correct if you look at it in terms of infractions per cyclist, however if you are looking at total infractions you are totally out to lunch.
you also need to look at the root cause of those infractions. For example look at ridign your bike on the sidewalk. Why do people do that? I think most do because they feel it is safer than riding on the road. make the road safer to ride on ( one part of the solution is driver education), and then maybe you'll see less of those infractions.

grumpy old man wrote:
Chances are it is scratched because the cyclist passed him on the right. There are laws against that and I can safely say far more cyclists do that than motorists squeeze out cyclists.

You are coompletely incorrect.
e.g lets say I pass every stop car on the right ( I don't, but let's just say I do)
I do get pinched by anywhere from 4-10 cars on each leg of my commute (one of the reason why I ride in the middle of the lane)
So lets do the math
Number of bicyclists that pass on the right: 1
Number of cars that pinch out cyclists: 4-10
I'm pretty sure that numbers of 4 and up are greater than 1.

JTF wrote:

JTF wrote:Cyclists appear to all hate cars passing them too closely, but almost all cyclists pass very, very closely when the cars are waiting at a red light....making the cars have to pass them again and again. [end rant]

Seems a cyclist that acts like a dumbass is amoung us eh...lol. Seems some don't know what the rules of the road really are.

Seems the head dumb ass likes to keep baiting people....give it a rest already dude.

JTF wrote:

JTF wrote:Cyclists appear to all hate cars passing them too closely, but almost all cyclists pass very, very closely when the cars are waiting at a red light....making the cars have to pass them again and again. [end rant]

Seems a cyclist that acts like a dumbass is amoung us eh...lol. Seems some don't know what the rules of the road really are.

When you reply to your own quote, you don't make any sense.
If you are going to make a baseless accusation, then do that so everybody can see right throught it, but don't spew vague crap like the above.

I apologize for not making it more clear for you. I'll type slower next time.

JTF wrote:I apologize for not making it more clear for you. I'll type slower next time.

If you are going to suggest someone is 'a' dumbass cyclist, when there are obviously more than one cyclist posting, indicate who you are referring to.
Either way, unless you have actually seen them ride, then yes, it's a baseless accusation. There is no need to spew personal attack crap.

Regarding personal attack crap, I was under the impression that was 87% of the reason to have these forums?

How about this!
I will give $50 to anyone that runs MizP off the road when she is on her bike, as long as I can be there, because I will get $1,000 worth of entertainment when she beats the crap out of him!! lol

Heheheheh....you old fart....bring it on I promise not to disappoint.

You aren't supposed to be in town!

hehehehe.... I knew it would be a fun discussion when I posted it, but did not think this many peeps would be sitting inside arguing about this on a Sunday...

to allthe cyclists posting.. get the hell out there and enjoy this weather!

Yes and signal when you go out on the road hehehehe.

The entire cost of infrastructure debate is a moot point. The cost savings to government by promoting cycling, although indirect, in all likely hood negates of cost of developing infrastructure: reduced traffic = less polution = less road repairs = reduced health care cost from healthier society = etc... This is should a gimme for governments.

The real question is about the insurance issue as you have all been discussing. I have no clue how this could work however. But here is some food for thought that I can't figure answers to:

- If cyclist should pay insurance, why not roller-bladers, skateboarders, dog-walkers, joggers, etc... What happens if a pedestrian accidentally scratches a car? Is that pedestrian covered by MPI? Would they require a bike shop to safety it?

- Would race bikes only used for competition be exempt?

- At what age would you have to begin registering your bike? Would kids riding around their neighborhood with training wheels have to be insured as well? What if you own multiple bikes? Insurance for each of them or would it be transferrable?

- We used to have a licensing system way back in the day. Why did you get rid of it in the first place? Probably simply wasn't cost-effective and probably wouldn't be until about 10-15% of the population commutes to work on bikes. The cost to pay for 1 bureaucrat to process the system would be approx $50,000 per year. Lets assume 500 people legitemately commute to downtown every day (probably accurate) that means they would all have to pay about $100 a piece in just to pay this person's salary. And we all know the cost to set up such a program would cost well more than $50,000 - So its a cost benefit game as well.

- Why are cyclist not allowed on the sidewalks anyways? We always just assume that this is correct, simply because the highway traffic act says so. But overall, its obviously safer to mix pedestrians (5km/h) with cyclists (20km/h) than cyclists with cars (60km/h +). With the exception of downtown, 98% of sidewalks in the suburbs are completely void of pedestrian traffic anyways (ie. Lindenwoods, Royal Wood, White Ridge, etc...) Seems like a wasted resource that otherwise could be shared. Could both not share the sidewalk, but with the legal understanding that the pedestrian has the right of way?

Have fun with that.

Also, the reason the government would be hesitant to force an insurance and licensing system with cyclists, is because once they do that, they effectively legitimize cycling as a mode of transportation in legal terms - which then leads to a near obligation to actually then build legitimate cycling infrastructure - something they've been able to avoid for years, because the bikes currently exists in the grey area.

"- If cyclist should pay insurance, why not roller-bladers, skateboarders, dog-walkers, joggers, etc... What happens if a pedestrian accidentally scratches a car? Is that pedestrian covered by MPI? Would they require a bike shop to safety it"

They are actually considering a tax(insurance) on pedestrians in one european town... although I really doubt many people are behind the politician proposing it

"Why are cyclist not allowed on the sidewalks anyways? We always just assume that this is correct, simply because the highway traffic act says so. But overall, its obviously safer to mix pedestrians (5km/h) with cyclists (20km/h) than cyclists with cars (60km/h +). "

ahh but the problem here is not only the potential for cyclist to smash into pedestrians... more of the cyclists, since they become pedestrians by being on the sidewalk now have the "right of way" at intersections. Its rather difficult for a vehicle stopped at an intersection to deal with cyclists simply because they move too fast. You can pull up to an intersection look to the left.. no one walking except something about 1/2 block away. Look to the right... no one coming.. prepare to go and WAMO!!! the half block away thing is already on top of you.

Cyclists are supposed to dismount if using pedestrian street crossings.....they are also supposed to dismount if using crosswalks.....it is unfortunate that those of us who do follow the rules have to put up with ignorant taunts and criticisms.

St Norberter wrote:There are bad cyclists and bad drivers. But your statement above is incorrect without a qualifier. You're probably correct if you look at it in terms of infractions per cyclist, however if you are looking at total infractions you are totally out to lunch.
you also need to look at the root cause of those infractions. For example look at ridign your bike on the sidewalk. Why do people do that? I think most do because they feel it is safer than riding on the road. make the road safer to ride on ( one part of the solution is driver education), and then maybe you'll see less of those infractions.

Well duh... I'm saying as a percentage of cyclists. I say half (who the frick knows) of all cyclists run red lights. And one percent of all drivers run red lights.

I see cyclists riding like complete bozos on the road even when the road is parallel with a bike path.

I watched, from behind, a cyclist occupy an entire lane, with traffic piling up behind him. He then passed a number of cars stopped at a red light, on the right between the cars and the curb. Zoom through that red light. Get passed again by those same cars who then got stopped by another red light. The cyclist then passed those same cars on the right again, and proceeded to zoom through yet another red light.

This happens all the time. This is not some isolated incident of a rebel cyclist.

And PUUULLLEEASE STOP saying "well here is what motorists do" as if it justifies cyclists' behaviour. It does not.

This morning I watched as two cyclists rode side-by-side on a one lane street, effectively blocking traffic. When they reached a cross-road they simply rode up the sidewalk and off they went.

If it is too dangerous to ride on roads then get off your bike and go educate those drivers.

Not all cyclists do what you have seen. I bristle at the antics of those scofflaws for it makes my life more difficult on the road....