radar tickets in construction zones tossed, declared illegal

http://www.winnipegsun.com/news/columnists/tom_brodbeck/2009/02/08/8307331-sun.html


wow a judge with enough common sense to follow the law.... too bad it will be overturned because the taffic laws also allow municipalities to set their own laws in this regard./

Judicial Justice of the Peace Norman Sundstrom is my hero. He saw right through the city's arrogant ploy to turn a righteous safety need into a blatant cash grab. Good for him.

But the city will fight this all the way to the supreme court if necessary. They will protect all forms of such cash grabs in the guise of safety. Far too much money is at stake.

Yes I will I was one of them who got fined on a Saturday night .

Too bad mine was close to a year ago at Bishop Grandin and Pembina. Same situation, 80km/h in a 80 km/h zone (50km/h when workers present) on a Sunday with no workers present. I didn't bother trying to fight it as I don't have time to go down to Broadway on weekdays. Wonder if this means I can apply to get my money back? There must have been 100's if not 1000's of tickets issued on the weekends at that one location alone.

If they dont fight it and win, yes you will get your money back

Iam going to inquire about it I paid it at the time , but thought it wrong . Just did not have time to stand and wait for the judge to see it .

http://www.winnipegsun.com/news/columnists/tom_brodbeck/2009/02/10/8330981-sun.html
Mayor Sam Katz wants the city to stop nailing drivers with photo radar tickets in construction zones when workers are not present.
....
He said he supports the use of photo radar in construction zones too, but only when workers are on the job.
"If there's no construction going on, I think it's ridiculous," said Katz.
.. read more at the sun

LOL
Katz said he was unaware of the practice until he read about the ruling in the Sun over the weekend.


Yeah unaware eh? how many letters to the editor? How many reports in the papers that it was happening... and you say you were unaware? Good eye on teh city there Sam, good eye.

Sammy, ever the politician..

Maybe we're finally on the right road...of removing all the stupid camera lights.

I dont have an issue with the cameras when they actually help safety. Its eliminating all the tax grab ones that I am set on.

Bingo! Ditto!

Deank wrote:If they dont fight it and win, yes you will get your money back

Just curious what the process to get reimbursed would be should the ruling stand?

The city is smart... it will automatically mail a cheque out to all people who paid the fine already. The city is dumb... it will wait for the class action suit that is already in the works to go to court before they pay.
Considering the province ( not the city ) is preparing to contest the ruling it will likely be at least 1 year before a final judgement is done.

But then, with our Mayor jumping in, it throws everything in the loop. Call your MLA, Call your Councillor and demand a refund.

And in that the City and the Province are creating a double standard in saying it is ok to speed when you think there are no workers there but you will get caught it there are workers there. In the winter time, most construction sites do stop work when it gets dark but in the summer when the speeding is at it's worst, there are a lot of sites that have 24 hour workers there, monitoring the site for vandals who come onto the site to steal equipment or damage the site, causing increasing costs. These guys may not be visible to the everyday driver going by but they are there and could be hurt or killed if there was an accident because of excessive speed. I don't agree with the cash grab concept either but in the interest of safety and to teach people that they need to obey the laws of the road including construction zones I will stand behind these particular speed camera sights. 3 of the construction sites in particular that were deemed "cash grabs" were the Bishop Grandin overpass, the Lag & Grassie section and the South Perimeter Overpass, where during the summer there was 24 hour surveillance with site crews there overnight monitoring the site, watching the concrete dry (as stupid as that sounds but necessary because of the type of bridge construction). In these cases, each and every one of those tickets should be upheld as there was a crew member on site, working.

holly golightly wrote:And in that the City and the Province are creating a double standard in saying it is ok to speed when you think there are no workers there but you will get caught it there are workers there. In the winter time, most construction sites do stop work when it gets dark but in the summer when the speeding is at it's worst, there are a lot of sites that have 24 hour workers there, monitoring the site for vandals who come onto the site to steal equipment or damage the site, causing increasing costs. These guys may not be visible to the everyday driver going by but they are there and could be hurt or killed if there was an accident because of excessive speed. I don't agree with the cash grab concept either but in the interest of safety and to teach people that they need to obey the laws of the road including construction zones I will stand behind these particular speed camera sights. 3 of the construction sites in particular that were deemed "cash grabs" were the Bishop Grandin overpass, the Lag & Grassie section and the South Perimeter Overpass, where during the summer there was 24 hour surveillance with site crews there overnight monitoring the site, watching the concrete dry (as stupid as that sounds but necessary because of the type of bridge construction). In these cases, each and every one of those tickets should be upheld as there was a crew member on site, working.

24 Hour Worksites are almost unheard of in Winnipeg...mostly due to unions.

Unless it's an emergency repair (ie. bridge falling down, hole in the middle of the road), they would typically throw a steel plate over the road and continue the next day.

There is usually a security company hired to 'sit' overnight on sites...especially if equipment is onsite. I wonder if they count as "workers present" for that signage?

There's no such thing as radar lights for "safety". They are ALL cash-grab lights.

I don't agree with speeding, and I agree there should be ways of controlling speed in certain areas...but the city could spend its money much better and more efficiently than setting up the lights, and stealing from the motorists.

Put a cop car at certain locations with lights flashing. You wouldn't even need a cop in it...just the car. That will slow people down without stealing money.

Put speed bumps in at school crossing zones. MOST the idiots who insist on speeding through those areas, believe their vehicles so "precious" they'll slow down to avoid damage. If you want to get really fancy...get speed bumps that raise up and down at specific times...during prime times, make the bumps higher, during "off times", lower them to street level.

If they are worried about parks and/or school areas, they can put motion sensors in to determine if anyone is actually on the playground, or in school. If there's no movement...nothing happens, if there is movement, then yellow flashing lights come on in that area to slow people down...similar to the flashing-light crosswalks.

NO System is perfect...but there are certainly ways of providing a safer environment than stealing from (and now we've seen lying to) the public.

One thing Sam is Saying.... If the signs are up it counts.. but the workers should be taking the signs down at end of work day.

Regarding security people.

As crappy as this sounds... that is not the intent at all of the reduced speed in a construction site. The purpose is because the workers are concentrating on their job, there is also alot of slow moving equipment moving around and reducing speed so that they can react to you better is the reason.

A security person, monitoring usually from his shack with the occasional stroll around the site and even the guy watching the Cement dry.. dont actually count as much because they are alot more free to focus on the vehicles around them then the average worker.

"There is usually a security company hired to 'sit' overnight on sites...especially if equipment is onsite. I wonder if they count as "workers present" for that signage?" AGEsAces
To that comment, yes they are considered "workers present" and why wouldn't they be, because they are "construction" workers? This declaration is going to set a standard that will impact not only the construction sites but also the school zones in that people who are caught speeding through a school zone in off school hours are going to claim that they should not have to pay either because there were no children at school.
Speeding is speeding and if you speed where you know you shouldn't and get caught then you should be made to pay.

no holly they do not count as workers as the original legislation was intended.

And I would hope this declaration DOES NOT impact the speed cameras around schools and recreation areas, as kids can actually be there most anytime.

holly golightly wrote:"There is usually a security company hired to 'sit' overnight on sites...especially if equipment is onsite. I wonder if they count as "workers present" for that signage?" AGEsAces
To that comment, yes they are considered "workers present" and why wouldn't they be, because they are "construction" workers? This declaration is going to set a standard that will impact not only the construction sites but also the school zones in that people who are caught speeding through a school zone in off school hours are going to claim that they should not have to pay either because there were no children at school.
Speeding is speeding and if you speed where you know you shouldn't and get caught then you should be made to pay.

I don't think anyone is saying those speeding shouldn't pay.
The cases being overturned are where the "regular limit" (say 80kph) has been changed specifically for construction to a construction limit (say 50kph)...but that when no construction is being done...people are getting tickets in what should be back to 80kph.

My argument though, is there are better ways to control traffic than setting up speed traps and handing out tickets anonymously. HIDING people in unmarked vehicles at random points throughout a day is deceiving the public. I agree that if people speed, they should get the ticket...but if it's really about safety and not money...those unmarked vehicles should be painted a bright orange, and the person inside should be required to post a sign (or a permanent "zone sign" should be installed) indicating they are actually there.

All the camera vans and camera lights do, is create animosity, between the public and the government officials...and create drivers who are more apt for driving erratically or aggressively as a protest to that system when they aren't be "watched".

^ what Ages says...
+ a little addition. If a particular area has a high number of speeding tickets an immediate investigation into what people are speeding in that area is needed.. ie is the road designed for higher speed? Are the speed limits signs misleading or poorly marked? Is it a stretch of road that switches speed for seemingly no reason and the switches back ( anyone else remember all the speeding tickets leading up the the bridge being tossed? )

But to that argument, school zones & playground zones are clearly marked with a yellow caution sign (with a child playing in it) so if you are caught speeding through that zone by an "anonymous" vehicle then who is at fault? And to some extent, having the reduced speed limit in a construciton zone is not only for the worker's safety but for your own as it could be dangerous to drive through a construction zone with all that equipment around.
And maybe if people were conditioned to slow down at construction sites regardless of the time of day, maybe just maybe those 2 men who were working on St Mary's Rd might still be around today. They were killed because someone was speeding through the construction zone and lost control of the car.

Holy... again the big arguement is the artificially reduced zones.... The speed in a school/ rec area is a constant.. regardless of an anonymous car or police car or brightly painted orange car... you should get a ticket regardless of time of day or night a school zone stays the same speed. ( other areas of Canada actually reduce the speed during school open/close and when school is in session )

Again...it's not THAT they are giving out tickets...it's HOW they are giving out tickets that is a problem (IMO).

If a cop car sits there (preferably with his lights flashing) with a radar gun and tickets people...fine.
If those camera vans were marked CLEARLY, and they still had the camera lights...fine...idiots speeding in the area deserve the tickets...they actually deserve flat tires and loss of license...but let's not go there.

Using specific incidents are POOR examples. Always have been. Creating laws because one person gets injured or killed is bandaid action and usually causes more problems than good. For that incident on St. Mary's...I do feel for the workers, and agree the one person who lost control should be punished, as they were already breaking the law in place. But (and I wasn't there) judging from the traffic through a construction zone...there is typically not ONE vehicle traveling through. So out of say 100 vehicles passing through (and probably all speeding), one vehicle lost control and caused a serious incident. I'm not trying to defend the 99 others who were probably speeding too...but those 99 did NOT cause an incident...that one did...and they alone should be punished.