City Run Golf Courses Losing Money

grumpy old man · 26 Re: City Run Golf Courses Losing Money Fri May 27, 2011 6:02 pm

grumpy old man

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Deank wrote:we are indeed losing MAJOR amounts of money on soccer/baseball/football fields..

and city tennis courts and outdoor ice rinks and.. well anything really. Almost every service the city offers is a money loser. Community centres..dont even get me started on how much those cost us per year.

If the city decides they wish to offer certain services as part of their mandate and Winnipeggers agree then I'm all for it. But the minute they start CHARGING for services there is a different dynamic in play.That does not mean I agree with every service but the real core services like outdoor ice rinks and baseball diamonds and football fields sure.

And we can debate until the cows come home which services should be offered and not offered.

Deank · 27 Re: City Run Golf Courses Losing Money Fri May 27, 2011 7:57 pm

Deank

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grumpy old man wrote:

Deank wrote:you haven't been to a bookstore lately?

All the bid ones are essentially private libraries. HELL they even allow you to have coffee while you read their books without paying. Sure you cant take it with you.. but you can come back as much as you want and read the entire book.

Not sure how to respond to this. Doubt you are serious though.

I am 100% serious. Chapters and the like offer all the services a Library does for the most part so why should the city be in that service.

I really would like to know why golf (mostly adults playing) should not be a form of recreation that the city subsidizes in some form, yet all these other services we do.

Deank · 28 Re: City Run Golf Courses Losing Money Fri May 27, 2011 8:02 pm

Deank

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grumpy old man wrote:

Deank wrote:we are indeed losing MAJOR amounts of money on soccer/baseball/football fields..

and city tennis courts and outdoor ice rinks and.. well anything really. Almost every service the city offers is a money loser. Community centres..dont even get me started on how much those cost us per year.

If the city decides they wish to offer certain services as part of their mandate and Winnipeggers agree then I'm all for it. But the minute they start CHARGING for services there is a different dynamic in play.That does not mean I agree with every service but the real core services like outdoor ice rinks and baseball diamonds and football fields sure.

And we can debate until the cows come home which services should be offered and not offered.

okay outdoor rinks.. which there are about 150 across the city. which the city pays 5000 per year to a CC to run. WHICH because of crappy weather and poor maintenance by CCs offer up at the absolute most 3 months of runtime.. costs the city $750000 per year PLUS the setup and tear down time of the city workers so perhaps nudging in close to 1 million?
Yet.. thats okay? but a 1 million "loss" on something used for over 6 months of the year by 10s of thousands of adults is not okay?

why?

if its because someone else runs one somewhere close by that makes money? well guess what... there are outdoor rinks close by that some people make money off... there are soccer and baseball diamonds that people make TONS of money off.

the argument dont hold GOM

rosencrentz · 29 Re: City Run Golf Courses Losing Money Sat May 28, 2011 10:09 am

rosencrentz

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What is the difference in quality of the ones that make money and those that don't? Is it the rink/field, or is it the quality of management?
How can anything run by a bureaucracy make money? lol

grumpy old man · 30 Re: City Run Golf Courses Losing Money Sat May 28, 2011 10:21 am

grumpy old man

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Does too.

Guest · 31 Re: City Run Golf Courses Losing Money Sat May 28, 2011 10:31 am

Guest

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The only thing that a library and a bookstore have in common is both have books inside their space.

There are many things that the city has taken on that they should not be involved with...art funding comes to mind as does "twinning cities" for example.

This level of government should not be expanding its mandate at all....and golf is one area that should be given back to the private sector.

Deank · 32 Re: City Run Golf Courses Losing Money Sat May 28, 2011 11:40 am

Deank

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fine...

by why just golf? why not get rid of all rec programming? Why is it only adults that we are targetting our reductions at?

rosencrentz · 33 Re: City Run Golf Courses Losing Money Sat May 28, 2011 12:18 pm

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Golf is perceived as a rich man's sport, isn't it?
Soccer is for a real workout?

Guest · 34 Re: City Run Golf Courses Losing Money Sat May 28, 2011 4:20 pm

Guest

Deank wrote:fine...

by why just golf? why not get rid of all rec programming? Why is it only adults that we are targetting our reductions at?

Kids play golf too, but you do have a point. There's a fine line imo as to where it's acceptable and where it's too much.

Giving Art Place $75K for a yearly program may be acceptable to some but buying a $75K picnic table is over the line to many. Personally I feel the city should not be funding art...it should be a different level of government that is.

While the city may be required to provide some recreational facilities, it may not be required to administer or maintain them. Golf is one such program that could be run by private enterprises...lease the course/land out. (Kinda' like being the mortgage holder on a rental property...you don't have to worry about tenants or maintainance.)

St Norberter · 35 Re: City Run Golf Courses Losing Money Sat May 28, 2011 4:47 pm

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private golf courses exist that provide the same service at the same cost to the taxpayer. That is why the city shouldn't be in that business. Green fees are pretty competitive. It's not like you can go to a city golf course and get cheaper green fees for comparative products.

As well, in a lot of the other cases you indicate, the facilities can be used beyond organized sports (arenas have free skates, outdoor rinks you can pretty much do a pickup game at any time, soccer fields are always available if you want to kick a ball around). Want to use a golf course? you're paying green fees.

If the city can't make money at it, and the facilities are in place being run by the private sector at the same cost to the consumer, there is no way the city should be running it.

rosencrentz · 36 Re: City Run Golf Courses Losing Money Sat May 28, 2011 5:04 pm

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I read somewhere that there has been a 50% reduction in people going to City courses? Does that mean that the city courses aren't competitive in the challenge?
A business that drops 50% in its sales goes out of business! I speak from experience! If it is City or government run, usually we don't hear about it.
Can Winnipeg do without all of its golf courses, with the private courses picking up the slack? Seems to me that we could benefit with $500 million in property sales to the Mayor's friends for home and office development, with the money going into infrastructure repairs, and then of course the increase in taxes on the new spots.

Deank · 37 Re: City Run Golf Courses Losing Money Sat May 28, 2011 7:27 pm

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JTF wrote:

Deank wrote:fine...

by why just golf? why not get rid of all rec programming? Why is it only adults that we are targetting our reductions at?

Kids play golf too, but you do have a point. There's a fine line imo as to where it's acceptable and where it's too much.

Giving Art Place $75K for a yearly program may be acceptable to some but buying a $75K picnic table is over the line to many. Personally I feel the city should not be funding art...it should be a different level of government that is.

While the city may be required to provide some recreational facilities, it may not be required to administer or maintain them. Golf is one such program that could be run by private enterprises...lease the course/land out. (Kinda' like being the mortgage holder on a rental property...you don't have to worry about tenants or maintainance.)

unfortunately the city has now gone full retard and instead of leasing them out to a private enterprise they are going to pay someone to run them.. while the city still eats the costs to run them.

Outsider · 38 Re: City Run Golf Courses Losing Money Sat May 28, 2011 7:34 pm

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rosencrentz wrote:I read somewhere that there has been a 50% reduction in people going to City courses?

If this is true, I wonder if people are unhappy because they have to go through 311 to make a reservation at a city-run course. Idea

Deank · 39 Re: City Run Golf Courses Losing Money Sat May 28, 2011 10:52 pm

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or unhappy with the food being served at them perhaps?

Freeman · 40 Re: City Run Golf Courses Losing Money Sat May 28, 2011 11:07 pm

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Keep in mind that the City does not run the programs that happen on sport fields, unlike the City run golf courses. Various users "book" the fields, outdoor rinks, indoor rinks for that matter. One can only imagine the cluster frick that would happen if the City actually tried to run the various sports.

rosencrentz · 41 Re: City Run Golf Courses Losing Money Sat May 28, 2011 11:09 pm

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Who is running the courses now? City employees?? Yikes, bad move!

Freeman · 42 Re: City Run Golf Courses Losing Money Sat May 28, 2011 11:15 pm

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Some of the courses are run by City staff (Kildonan, Blumberg) and others by various arrangements. Simple solution. Figure out what the tax revenue would be on each property and whatever the arrangement, the revenue to the City must exceed the tax revenue, or get rid of the property to private interests. If theres enough demand for golf, then someone will lease or purchase the property and run it like a business.

Guest · 43 Re: City Run Golf Courses Losing Money Sun May 29, 2011 9:04 am

Guest

Yup.

rosencrentz · 44 Re: City Run Golf Courses Losing Money Sun May 29, 2011 10:05 am

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Double yup! Does anyone think our Mayor will think like a businessman? I do!

Deank · 45 Re: City Run Golf Courses Losing Money Sun May 29, 2011 10:18 am

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gotta be careful about getting rid of gold property. Much of the time these LARGE vacant (or golf) swaths of green are simply placeholders for future plans.

Look at the charleswood expressway thing for instance. Or the road development in East K right now.

Or the fact that the one golf course is simply green usage of a dump (and therefore cant legally be sold)

rosencrentz · 46 Re: City Run Golf Courses Losing Money Sun May 29, 2011 10:25 am

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West Kildonan Golf course would be a pretty good addition to WK park. Put in that water slide and expand the Park area, or else sell the property via a bid auction? or just give it to one of Sammy's friends to build homes, business' and collect the new taxes, not that the City needs any new revenue! lol

Guest · 47 Re: City Run Golf Courses Losing Money Sun May 29, 2011 11:07 am

Guest

Yup.

However, before we sell off 'green space' land, we should tighten up management at the City's real estate department.

They should lease the facilities to private interests with strict stipulations as to how it is maintained...just like the shopping centers do.

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City Run Golf Courses Losing Money

26 Re: City Run Golf Courses Losing Money Fri May 27, 2011 6:02 pm

grumpy old man

27 Re: City Run Golf Courses Losing Money Fri May 27, 2011 7:57 pm

Deank

28 Re: City Run Golf Courses Losing Money Fri May 27, 2011 8:02 pm

Deank

29 Re: City Run Golf Courses Losing Money Sat May 28, 2011 10:09 am

rosencrentz

30 Re: City Run Golf Courses Losing Money Sat May 28, 2011 10:21 am

grumpy old man

31 Re: City Run Golf Courses Losing Money Sat May 28, 2011 10:31 am

Guest

32 Re: City Run Golf Courses Losing Money Sat May 28, 2011 11:40 am

Deank

33 Re: City Run Golf Courses Losing Money Sat May 28, 2011 12:18 pm

rosencrentz

34 Re: City Run Golf Courses Losing Money Sat May 28, 2011 4:20 pm

Guest

35 Re: City Run Golf Courses Losing Money Sat May 28, 2011 4:47 pm

St Norberter

36 Re: City Run Golf Courses Losing Money Sat May 28, 2011 5:04 pm

rosencrentz

37 Re: City Run Golf Courses Losing Money Sat May 28, 2011 7:27 pm

Deank

38 Re: City Run Golf Courses Losing Money Sat May 28, 2011 7:34 pm

Outsider

39 Re: City Run Golf Courses Losing Money Sat May 28, 2011 10:52 pm

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40 Re: City Run Golf Courses Losing Money Sat May 28, 2011 11:07 pm

Freeman

41 Re: City Run Golf Courses Losing Money Sat May 28, 2011 11:09 pm

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42 Re: City Run Golf Courses Losing Money Sat May 28, 2011 11:15 pm

Freeman

43 Re: City Run Golf Courses Losing Money Sun May 29, 2011 9:04 am

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44 Re: City Run Golf Courses Losing Money Sun May 29, 2011 10:05 am

rosencrentz

45 Re: City Run Golf Courses Losing Money Sun May 29, 2011 10:18 am

Deank

46 Re: City Run Golf Courses Losing Money Sun May 29, 2011 10:25 am

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