Winnipeg rejects local bid for ice machines

Agreed Deank.

AGEsAces wrote:

grumpy old man wrote:Yup. Agreed. But you don't invite a manufacturer to bid if you have no intention of buying their product. If the city is interested in fairness they must write the specification in such a manner as to ensure all companies are bidding at the same quality level. .

Oh...yes you do.

To get a price comparison against a model you really want.

It's like getting 3 quotes to fix your car before choosing where to go.

Have to disagree.

You invite people to bid you plan to do business with. If you intend product A only, you write your specification accordingly. If you want product B to bid you give them the opportunity to bid on a competitive basis (meet the spec).

If you will not be buying product B for quality issues you exclude them from the process. This happens all the time in purchasing/construction. You're in the game AA. You know this.

That's not true...ESPECIALLY with government contracts.

And Dean...I was not referencing BUYING a car...I'm talking about car repair...where you take it into a mechanic and get an estimate...or home repair...you get an estimate...you have someone actually put together a proposal as to what needs repaired, and what costs will be included in parts, labour, etc. for that contract.

It's the same in construction, or any bidding process.

You put together your "proposal" and submit it. TYPICALLY, the lowest bid wins...but that's not always the case.

I can attest that in some cases, other factors are taken into consideration by the Project Manager for that contract.
In some cases...it's previous dealings. Where a similar contract had been awarded, and they are happy by the service provided, and the ONLY reason it was sent to "open bidding" was because it's required by some legislation somewhere. That's NEVER revealed to those bidding...though many times it's already known.

In some cases...it's the reverse...where previous performance has proven to be unsatisfactory...but it's required to be an "open bid" and therefore must be allowed to have companies (even if they suck) to provide bids on a project.

We recently received a couple of projects for government jobs which meets both criteria above. We weren't low, but were awarded anyway.

We are in violent agreement. The lowest bidder does not have to be accepted. Here's the thing. If you're not planning to do business with company A why invite them to play? If you are using them for a price check that is inherently wrong.

But we are not talking about a contractor. We are talking about a product. In most tenders there are a very specific set of specifications issued that must be adhered to. Typically you'll see a spec (could be one page could be 101 pages) that exactly details the technical requirements. In most cases it goes on to list a specific list of approved manufacturers.

This widget to be supplied by Company A, Company B or Company C or approved equal.

If you are not company A, B or C you must submit a letter requesting approval c/w accompanying documents that will convince the consultant/owner that your product meets the specification. Then you might be accepted as equal and ideally allowed to bid.

At least that is how it has worked in the electrical industry for the last thirty years.

grumpy old man wrote:Yup. Agreed. But you don't invite a manufacturer to bid if you have no intention of buying their product. If the city is interested in fairness they must write the specification in such a manner as to ensure all companies are bidding at the same quality level.

Unfortunately our society has forced public money to be spent in a very long drawn out and multivendor RFP process.

Very often a minimum number of bids are needed before a purchase can even be made. It could very well be that they weren't allowed to buy ANY zambonis if they didn't get a minimum number of bids. When it comes to selecting the winning bid, the final dollar amount isn't the only deciding factor.

When you go out to buy a car do you just go and buy the cheapest one you can find?

UNLESS you're dealing with the government...who...because of their own redundancy and bureaucracy, are required to "open" a tender agreement to anyone who wants to put a bid in.

And...from what I've read so far...we're not talking about a "product", we're talking about a service, ie. machinery INCLUDING service, maintenance, training, etc.

We are all assuming what went into the tender documents. There could be maintenance and service. Maybe not. There could be financing arrangements or not. Or it could be a simple widget (ice cleaning machine) or not.

I've assumed we are dealing with a simple widget or a "product". No matter. Same rules apply...

BTW I've not once suggested the price was the final determining factor. But it is a major factor.

sputnik wrote:

grumpy old man wrote:Yup. Agreed. But you don't invite a manufacturer to bid if you have no intention of buying their product. If the city is interested in fairness they must write the specification in such a manner as to ensure all companies are bidding at the same quality level.

Unfortunately our society has forced public money to be spent in a very long drawn out and multivendor RFP process.

Very often a minimum number of bids are needed before a purchase can even be made. It could very well be that they weren't allowed to buy ANY zambonis if they didn't get a minimum number of bids. When it comes to selecting the winning bid, the final dollar amount isn't the only deciding factor.

When you go out to buy a car do you just go and buy the cheapest one you can find?

Not sure how your reply to my quoted comment applies. Care to connect the dots for moi?

actually ..read the article. The winning company can not provide the maintenance and service because they dont have a local shop.. so the ahem.. losing. company is providing said service.


Isn't service where the most money is made?

Possibly. Trouble is we don't know what went into the contract documents. Not sure what value the service and maintenance contract would be worth.

I do a fair amount of business with all levels of government now. It most often includes maintenance and training provisions. It ALWAYS includes widgets. And I ALWAYS have to either meet the spec or get approval on an alternate product.

I can't imagine this tender having a different standard applied to it.

I want you to quote 7 ice cleaning widgets.
I want each widget to do exactly this.
I will accept bids that include said widgets from Company A, B, C or approved equal.
Here are our terms and conditions.

In most cases for specialized equipment (the products I sell would fall into that category) the purchaser would have done his homework. He would have established a set of criteria that they want met. And they likely would have selected (invited) companies they know to bid on the RFP.

wouldn't that be nice if it always worked that way?

here's one for you...

We recently bid on and obtained a project with Manitoba Housing.

In the SPEC...it specifically calls for the use of a product (a glue for insulation)...which...is available...just NOT in Canada.
It's not even available to IMPORT to Canada (legally)...yet the so called "expert" who has done all their research and looked up what products should be used says this is the ONLY product they will accept. (not even an "equivalent").

Did ya quote what was specified?

grumpy old man wrote:Did ya quote what was specified?

Sure we do. However specifications across multiple vendors and different products is generally going to be pretty vague at best.

When you go car shopping you might have some specifications like...

- 4 door sedan
- 4 cyl engine
- black paint
- air conditioning
- sunroof
- cruise control

Now would you use these specs and just by the cheapest car that fit those specs?

I am sure you could find a Chevrolet Malibu and a Honda Accord that fit those specifications but the Accord is going to be several thousand dollars more in price.

Does that make buying a Honda wrong?

Huh? WTF you going on about sputnik? We're not discussing buying a car here... Try to keep up.

Well, it is basically....with a water tank attached.

ooo back to the original article for a second.

91K "plowed into the local rinks badly in need of repair" would not actually be repairing much,


but also...


How much would be saved over the life of these machines by not working on faulty transmissions (if that is the case)?

sputnik wrote:

grumpy old man wrote:Did ya quote what was specified?

Sure we do. However specifications across multiple vendors and different products is generally going to be pretty vague at best.

Dead wrong. This is a typical spec. Not vague in the least. http://www.nuspectra.com/pdf/arecont/AV5155_AE.pdf

Look up other A & E spec's.

Deank wrote:ooo back to the original article for a second.

91K "plowed into the local rinks badly in need of repair" would not actually be repairing much,


but also...


How much would be saved over the life of these machines by not working on faulty transmissions (if that is the case)?

That's why it'd be good to know why their bid was not accepted.

http://www.winnipeg.ca/matmgt/ait.stm

"An Important Message About Government Procurement
Opportunities



Procurement by the Governments of Canada, the
Provinces, the Yukon and the Northwest Territories
and by Canadian municipalities, municipal organizations, school boards
and publicly funded academic, health and
social service entities is subject to the provisions of Chapter 5
(Procurement) of the Agreement on Internal Trade.



Chapter 5 establishes a framework to ensure equal, non-discriminatory
access to such procurement above certain thresholds,
including the requirement for transparent procurement processes, and
defines procedures for bid protest. You can obtain
information about the Agreement on Internal Trade by visiting the
Internal Trade Secretariat's web site (see link below)."


the gyst...we cant specifically choose a local supplier just because they are local


which pretty much takes the wind out of the we should have purchased local people

the bids in question

http://www.winnipeg.ca/MatMgt/PublicOpenings.asp?FOLDER_NAME=895-2009&YEAR=2009



http://www.winnipeg.ca/MatMgt/FolderContents.asp?FOLDER_NAME=895-2009&YEAR=2009

Turns out these things aren't made locally anyway. So what it boils down to was the local distributor is put off that a Regina distributor scooped him. And was $90k~ higher to boot.

This is the most important one

http://www.winnipeg.ca/finance/findata/matmgt/documents//2009/895-2009//895-2009_Bid_Submission.pdf


Look how many details they are looking for.

Also note.


Guertin did submit another bid of over 1 million

BIDDER TOTAL BID PRICE
FER-MARC EQUIPMENT LTD. 644,820.00
GUERTIN EQUIPMENT LTD. 554,205.66
GUERTIN EQUIPMENT LTD. 1,084,860.00

all Winnipeg past bid opportunities are here


http://www.winnipeg.ca/finance/findata/matmgt/bidres/Past/2010.asp

all still active ones are here

http://www.winnipeg.ca/matmgt/bidopp.asp

grumpy old man wrote:Turns out these things aren't made locally anyway. So what it boils down to was the local distributor is put off that a Regina distributor scooped him. And was $90k~ higher to boot.

exactly..

Locally made.. as in Canadian made.. sure... But not made in Winnipeg or even Manitoba.