why is it that the cops are the ones that had to do this?

Pavolo wrote:

Miz point wrote:

grumpy old man wrote:Why indeed? Until such time as they can find a way to leave the reserve and become productive citizens then they ought to be busting their butts day-in and day-out making the reserve a better place.

Like something so simple as getting rid of the wrecked vehicles and appliances? Keeping the water system clean and sewage-free?

One compare and contrast I used to see a lot when driving number six back and forth from the north is the community of Grand Rapids. Cross the bridge headed south from the town proper and you hit the rez.....the difference was pretty obvious in terms of how the houses looked never mind the junkers laying around but just the appearance of the homes themselves.

Now why is that?

Being wards of the system the colonial past put together for them , if you understand the system .
You will see the end results of it , the places that they were put were not exactly the best areas . Nor was something called the Indian Act that ruled their lives for how many years . Gee the colonial settlers did not have those restrictions did they .

Now I wonder how your relatives would have fared if they had been given the deal the Natives were given . Yes much of it is their fault but alot of stems from the fact we agreed to look after them and just now we are getting tired of it .
So we think that we can just cast them to the wolves and wish them luck. God people they are in the mess we see, because this society gave it to them no fricking matter what you think . They were always excluded and bought for their silence .

Have I disagreed with you regarding some of the above stances of yours? NO. Many times on this forum and many others I have come out AGAINST the Indian Act, INAC and all the other levels of bureaucracy that are not working for ANYBODY.

As to my family - what does that have to do with First Nations folks, governance and accountability?

They got to own land and they were not forced to move into the remotest land from town

Mind you, Hydro has paid some folks millions and millions for the use of that remote land.

However, too many white lawyers made millions 'negotiating' those agreements (which is a freakin joke in itself).

grumpy old man wrote:

Pavolo wrote:Why the rules did not exist before some body arrived .

I'm sorry, I don't follow.

It was meant to the comment about who was responsable for the start of the hard times . I am saying the rules were and we know where they started.

Pavolo wrote:They got to own land and they were not forced to move into the remotest land from town, settelers were given free land just to come . Problem was it really was someone else's land that was taken in a very wrong way . Grumpy open your eyes and see that what was done was Canada's own apartheid .
The natives never were given equal chance . And now we cry that they have gotten too expensive to keep their silence so we will cast them off .

Your presumption is that ALL reserves were forced onto remote and unproductive land.

That is certainly not the case for all was it? How do you account for the reserves in Southern Manitoba that are surrounded by hugely productive farms and flourishing farming communities?

Pav, open your eyes too. Not every single action taken 100-200 years ago could not have been improved with some home-grown initiative.

Mizz I use the term relatives as a general statement not as specifically your s , meaning the earlier generations .

grumpy old man wrote:

Pavolo wrote:They got to own land and they were not forced to move into the remotest land from town, settelers were given free land just to come . Problem was it really was someone else's land that was taken in a very wrong way . Grumpy open your eyes and see that what was done was Canada's own apartheid .
The natives never were given equal chance . And now we cry that they have gotten too expensive to keep their silence so we will cast them off .

Your presumption is that ALL reserves were forced onto remote and unproductive land.

That is certainly not the case for all was it? How do you account for the reserves in Southern Manitoba that are surrounded by hugely productive farms and flourishing farming communities?

Pav, open your eyes too. Not every single action taken 100-200 years ago could not have been improved with some home-grown initiative.

I never assumed that. But the bands on the southern researves could not buy machinary to farm there land , nor were they allowed to sell it the crops to the generel market.

OK, so here's a question: If bands like the Nis'qa in BC can make progress as described in the link, and there are others, then why is it that others make absolutely no progress?

http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=A1ARTA0004498
This will explain most of it take the time to reaad it please .

Freeman wrote:OK, so here's a question: If bands like the Nis'qa in BC can make progress as described in the link, and there are others, then why is it that others make absolutely no progress?

for answer see above....

That' is....

JTF wrote:It all comes back to The Indian Industry. A lot of natives don't want change as they will be vulnerable to huge decreases in their incomes....and those are the ones with power.

Pav I do not believe that the majority of posters responding on this topic have anything against First Nations peoples. What we are taking issue with or trying to address, is an overall malaise that just seems to get worse no matter how many MORE dollars are tossed around, committees struck or agreements arrived at. Those of us who are not First Nations have nothing to do with what is happening in those communities.....NOTHING. Think about it Pav. I have no say in terms of where monies go at Peguis, Shamattawa, Garden Hill, Tadoule, Brochet, Pauingassi, Waywayseecapo etc...nor does anyone else on this forum (unless Death128 is a First Nations Spy sent out to find out what whitey is really all about? - sorry Death, bad joke)

I tried to address rez corruption and abuse issues years ago (with an Aboriginal colleague) and was threatened with violence. The both of us were threatened, not just me. Media was reticent, and in many cases still is, to do in-depth analysis of the Reservation system as it exists here in our province. Government, in the form of INAC, says and does little except to stick its collective head(s) in the sand hoping all will resolve itself.

All I see is the same crap happening year in and year out and more money vanishing....trickle-down economic policies do not work. And JTF is right in saying that the rez system is apartheid-like.

Either we all participate equally in this great country of ours or we set up defacto nations with their own charters, treasuries, laws, borders, government - whatever - but these nations like other UN-recognized nations worldwide would be autonomous and therefore would have to be SELF-SUSTAINING. How well do you think that would work?

Look no further than the province of Quebec and why they are still a part of Canada. Gee, I wonder why?

Pavolo wrote:
I never assumed that. But the bands on the southern researves could not buy machinary to farm there land , nor were they allowed to sell it the crops to the generel market.

Can you prove that statement?
Because it just does not sound right!

JTF wrote:

They got to own land and they were not forced to move into the remotest land from town

Mind you, Hydro has paid some folks millions and millions for the use of that remote land.

However, too many white lawyers made millions 'negotiating' those agreements (which is a freakin joke in itself).

So why didn't they use native lawyers?

Yeah Pav, please provide links for your assertion that Natives could not buy machinery nor sell their crops.....

Mizz Yes you are right about the reluctance to change what makes it worse is the few Chiefs who won't change . But they and not there people have had pretty good .

Read the Indian Act the link was posted in the past but someone said it was irrelevant

JTF wrote:Why would anyone want to live in a remote area that has no future in it?

Probably because it "does not cost anything to live there".

Pavolo wrote:But the bands on the southern reserves could not buy machinery to farm their land, nor were they allowed to sell it the crops to the general market.

Yet today they can. Instead they build gas bars and casinos.

I get that for far far too long aboriginals were oppressed. I get it. I do.

How do we reconcile that now that they are not oppressed, and they can buy and build casinos, and sell crops, that the reserves in some of the most fertile lands in the world are so miserably poor? And getting poorer?

Pavolo wrote:Read the Indian Act the link was posted in the past but someone said it was irrelevant

I did read the last link you posted. I missed it. Can you cut and paste the relevant passage, with the link?

Pavolo wrote:Read the Indian Act the link was posted in the past but someone said it was irrelevant

Please provide a link.
So I can read the right document.
Because I still can not believe it.
Thanks

Outsider wrote:

JTF wrote:

They got to own land and they were not forced to move into the remotest land from town

Mind you, Hydro has paid some folks millions and millions for the use of that remote land.

However, too many white lawyers made millions 'negotiating' those agreements (which is a freakin joke in itself).

So why didn't they use native lawyers?

Because he was tied up with an Inquiry I believe. LOL

No they were put there.
And grumpy it is only in the last 15 yrs or so they were given the casinos . And they could buy machinery now but because they do not pay tax I believe they can still not sell wheat on the open market . The other farmers said it was unfair . I may be wrong but I believe that still is the case.

Pavolo wrote:Mizz Yes you are right about the reluctance to change what makes it worse is the few Chiefs who won't change . But they and not there people have had pretty good .

Does anyone remember what happened just a couple of weeks ago when it came to light that some unknown native woman has been getting paid around $350K for the last 20 years? (I believe she got about $200K in expenses....)

Nice work if you can get it eh?

Yes she was a relative was she not to the cheif , this is the bs that Mizz speaks of and that has to stop at the band levels

Why would she ever want to stop it....lol.

That is the problem imo. It's the Government that has to pull the plug and stop it.

How endemic do you suppose that is?

Pavolo wrote:Mizz Yes you are right about the reluctance to change what makes it worse is the few Chiefs who won't change . But they and not there people have had pretty good .

Quite a number of times Pav I HAVE BEEN RIGHT and YOU HAVE AGREED with me......so stop trying to paint me with the redneck brush because doing so adds no credibility to any of your statements nor do you "win" any arguments. And btw, I am still having a helluva time understanding half of what you write.

Please make the effort to be a bit more clear?

Who said your link was irrelevant? I cannot find a statement from anyone saying that. When I went to said link I could not even scroll down the entire page as it seems to be not working properly.