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Top Secret USA Torture Memo's released today

+2
Triniman
JT Estoban
6 posters

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JT Estoban

JT Estoban
major-contributor
major-contributor

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/16/bush-torture-memos-releas_n_187867.html

If you've got a magnifying glass and some free time on your hands, have a scroll through.

JT Estoban

JT Estoban
major-contributor
major-contributor

All 4 documents were released, and people have been pouring over them ever since. I've actually read the first one, and it's quite shocking. Here's a highlight:

"Walling" is slamming an individual into a wall. "Cramped
confinement" means "placement of the individual in a confined space"
that "is usually dark . . . the dimensions of which restrict the
individual's movements" -- in other words, a coffin-like space. The
memo specifically states that the purpose of "stress positions" is to
cause "muscle fatigue." And here is what "insects placed in a
confinement box" means

More on this mess here: http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/radio/2009/04/16/aclu/index.html



Last edited by JT Estoban on Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:58 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Wrong link)

JT Estoban

JT Estoban
major-contributor
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A very well worded special comment on Torture Accountability and why it's necessary:

http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/countdown-special-comment-future-us-depend

Guest

Anonymous
Guest

In order to see that it doesn't work, I guess you have to try torture in the first place.

So now, we've been there, done that, so let's move on already.

JT Estoban

JT Estoban
major-contributor
major-contributor

Sorry, this is something that you don't just "try to see if it works" because everyone has known for a very long time now, that torture does not work!

Not only that, but to just move on as you say, without any repercussions of these actions is against the law. Torture is against the law. And it's against the law not to prosecute those who ordered and carried out those orders.

JT Estoban

JT Estoban
major-contributor
major-contributor

Move on?

"In point of fact, every effort to merely draw a line in the sand and
declare the past dead has served only to keep the past alive and often
to strengthen it. We "moved forward" with slavery in the Declaration of
Independence and the Constitution. And four score and nine years later,
we had buried 600,000 of our sons and brothers, in a Civil War.
After that war's ending, we "moved forward" without the social
restructuring — and protection of the rights of minorities — in the
south. And a century later, we had not only not resolved anything, but
black leaders were still being assassinated in our southern cities.
We "moved forward" with Germany in the reconstruction of Europe after the First World War.
Nobody even arrested the German Kaiser, let alone conducted war crimes
trials then. And 19 years later, there was an indescribably more evil
Germany and a more heart-rending Second World War.
We "moved forward" with the trusts of the early 1900s. And today, we
are at the mercy of corporations too big to fail. We "moved forward"
with the Palmer Raids and got McCarthyism.
And we "moved forward" with McCarthyism and got Watergate. We "moved
forward" with Watergate and junior members of the Ford administration
realized how little was ultimately at risk.
They grew up to be Paul Wolfowitz and Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney."

Source: http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/node/27447

Triniman

Triniman
general-contributor
general-contributor

What about torturing tax payers?

JT Estoban

JT Estoban
major-contributor
major-contributor

What's your angle?

Is it from the context of; it would cost the taxpayers money to investigate, and prosecute, so it shouldn't be done?

(Even though it was people representing taxpayers who broke the law by
approving and ordering torture. And torture was illegally carried out
by people working for taxpayers? So, essentially, tax payers, through
their elected officials, and public servants paid for torture done on
their behalf....not only that, but anti-torture laws, which were
ratified, specifically require prosecution of torture by all those
member countries that ratified that treaty)

Or are you speaking of one of the provisions in a different memo's which they concluded it was legal for the government to imprison citizens at the Presidents discretion, rendition them and torture them?

Triniman

Triniman
general-contributor
general-contributor

JT Estoban wrote:What's your angle?

Our taxes are too high.

JT Estoban

JT Estoban
major-contributor
major-contributor

...................ok and?

Anything else?

Guest

Anonymous
Guest

That's enough, especially when spending millions and millions will do sweet fcuk all. Better we spend it where it will do some good....like killing some fcuken terrorists. Wink

AGEsAces

AGEsAces
moderator
moderator

WASHINGTON (AFP) – Amid calls for torture prosecutions, former Bush administration officials Friday slammed President Barack Obama's release of terror
interrogation memos, warning the move would fuel "timidity and fear" among US spies.
Unhappy with Obama's promise not to prosecute CIA officials, human rights groups have demanded criminal investigations of officials who approved or used the techniques chillingly detailed in the Justice Department memos.
But in an editorial in The Wall Street Journal, former CIA director Michael Hayden and former attorney general Michael Mukasey charged that disclosure of the memos "was unnecessary as a legal matter, and is unsound as a matter of policy."
"Its effect will be to invite the kind of institutional timidity and fear of recrimination that weakened intelligence gathering in the past, and that we came sorely to regret on September 11, 2001."
White House senior adviser David Axelrod countered that Obama's decision to release the memos written by top legal officials in George W. Bush's administration was "a weighty decision." Obama "thought very long and hard about it, consulted widely, because there were two principles at stake," Axelrod told the Politico news website.
"One is the sanctity of covert operations and keeping faith with the people who do them, and the impact on national security, on the one hand. And the other was the law and his belief in transparency." Obama consulted officials from the Justice Department, the CIA, the Homeland Security Department and the director of national intelligence,
he said.
In releasing the four partially blacked-out memos, Obama said Thursday that the interrogation tactics, which have been widely denounced as torture, "undermine our moral authority and do not make us safer."
But he also pledged not to prosecute operatives who carried out the interrogations because they acted with the approval of the Justice Department and were defending their country.
The American Civil Liberties Union, which brought the lawsuit that forced the memos, said Obama's position against prosecutions was "untenable." "There can be no more excuses for putting off criminal investigations of officials who authorized torture, lawyers who justified it and interrogators who broke the law," said Anthony Romero, the ACLU's executive director.
The Center for Constitutional Rights noted that it has tried to bring criminal cases in Europe against former defense secretary Robert Gates, former CIA director George Tenet, and former Attorney General Alberto Gonzalez. Hayden and Mukasey, who both served during Bush's second term, said the release "assures that terrorists are now aware of the absolute limit of what the US government could do to extract information from them, and can supplement their training accordingly and thus diminish the effectiveness of these techniques."
They also argued that the disclosure meant that Obama was making permanent the uspension of the interrogation techniques. "By allowing this disclosure, President Obama has tied not only his own hands but also the hands of any future administration faced with the prospect of attack," Hayden and Mukasey wrote.
The former officials defended the use of the techniques, noting that some detainees, including top Al-Qaeda detainee Abu Zubaydah, had voluntarily disclosed information after being submitted to CIA interrogations.
The memos were authored by Jay Bybee and Steven Bradbury, who at the time were lawyers for Bush's Office Counsel.
During his second day in office, Obama signed an executive order banning the use of torture and ordering the closure of all CIA detention centers.

http://www.photage.ca

JT Estoban

JT Estoban
major-contributor
major-contributor

"Here's a former FBI interrogator -- who interrogated Al Quaeda suspects
-- saying categorically that torture does not help collect
intelligence, but that it does sell impressionable people on the legitimacy of jihad, on the grounds that a regime that tortures deserves to be attacked."

"Former FBI Interrogator Jack Cloonan explains that regular
interrogation tactics work well on even the worst terrorists, that
there's no such thing as a "ticking timebomb" scenario, and that
waterboarding has done much more harm than good."

Source: http://www.boingboing.net/2008/03/10/fbi-interrogator-tor.html

Deank

Deank
contributor eminence
contributor eminence

If you dont think torture works... your asking the wrong questions.

JT Estoban

JT Estoban
major-contributor
major-contributor

Actually, I think I'd put more faith in what the person actually conducting the interrogation has to say about it's effectiveness.

I just hope you guys don't get too outraged when terrorists, or any other enemy country/force for that matter, starts using "enhanced" techniques on anyone they happen to capture.

rosencrentz

rosencrentz
uber-contributor
uber-contributor

I like the statement at the end- "If all the above fails, then send the subjects to Winnipeg to wait for spring to arrive"

http://www.elansofas.com

Deank

Deank
contributor eminence
contributor eminence

LOL.. because cutting off the heads is so much better right?

Deank

Deank
contributor eminence
contributor eminence

torture can be very effective in getting informatio. It however can also be very effective in getting incorrect information. If the people have nothing to say, they will make up sh1t just to get it to stop.

JT Estoban

JT Estoban
major-contributor
major-contributor

"Beyond those generalities, I think the significance of Obama's decision
to release those memos -- and the political courage it took --
shouldn't be minimized. There is no question that many key factions in
the "intelligence community" were vehemently opposed to release of
those memos. I have no doubt that reports that they waged a "war" to prevent release of these memos were absolutely true. The disgusting comments of former CIA Director Mike Hayden on MSNBC yesterday
-- where he made clear that he simply does not believe in the right of
citizens to know what their government does and that government crimes
should be kept hidden-- is clearly what Obama was hearing from many
powerful circles. That twisted anti-democratic mentality is the one
that predominates in our political class. "

Link to full article: Here

Deank

Deank
contributor eminence
contributor eminence

"where he made clear that he simply does not believe in the right of
citizens to know what their government does and that government crimes
should be kept hidden-"

maybe we are torturing the wrong people for information

JT Estoban

JT Estoban
major-contributor
major-contributor

It's not just that they are illegal, they are War Crimes.

That's right, a War Crime. Look it up if you don't think that's true.

People who did this in WW2 were hanged for this by the Allies.
It's repugnant.

JT Estoban

JT Estoban
major-contributor
major-contributor

That's all for me until next week.
Have a good weekend fellas.

rosencrentz

rosencrentz
uber-contributor
uber-contributor

No such thing as war crimes in the U.S. "Might is Right" has worked for so many years, that it is hard to learn "moralality"
Moral- who decides what is and isn't!
Declare a "War on ______", and then you don't have to worry!

http://www.elansofas.com

AGEsAces

AGEsAces
moderator
moderator

JT Estoban wrote:It's not just that they are illegal, they are War Crimes.

That's right, a War Crime. Look it up if you don't think that's true.

People who did this in WW2 were hanged for this by the Allies.
It's repugnant.

What do you think would've been the outcome had the Axis dominated in WW2?

Would the methods of torture used then be deemed ineffective? or standard procedure?

http://www.photage.ca

Deank

Deank
contributor eminence
contributor eminence

why torture people when you can just kill them.. other then fun its a waste of effort..

Dont forget JT... Bush declared that no matter what any american agents did they would not be held responsible and therefore not liable for war crimes... and see you Monday Smile

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