No Tasers So We Had To Kill The Guy!

No tasers at time of shooting: police



Canwest News Service Published: Tuesday, March 24, 2009
Neither the police officer who shot and killed a homeless man in Vancouver on Friday nor her partner were armed with Tasers, Vancouver police spokeswoman Jana McGuinness says. The officer shot Michael Vann Hubbard, 58, after he threatened her with a small box-cutter. An autopsy showed he died of a single gunshot wound. Police said the 31-year-old officer and her 43-year-old partner responded to a mid-morning 911 call reporting a vehicle theft. The two female officers, both with five years experience on the force, approached Mr. Hubbard at the scene. Police said Mr. Hubbard pulled out a box-cutter and refused commands to drop the knife. The officers called for backup, but the man advanced on them, Ms. McGuinness said. "Investigators are currently reviewing surveillance video of the incident obtained from two separate sources," she said in a statement. Vancouver police Chief Jim Chu has asked the Abbotsford police force to investigate the shooting.

Man killed by Vancouver police not a suspect in theft, group says



Canwest News Service Published: Wednesday, March 25, 2009

The homeless man Vancouver police shot and killed on Friday was not the theft suspect they were chasing, according to the president of the B. C. Civil Liberties Association. David Eby, pictured, said he was told by both the victim's sister and a senior Vancouver police officer that police were called after a vehicle theft in downtown Vancouver. The two female officers were looking for a man wearing a black backpack allegedly stolen from the car when they stopped Michael Vann Hubbard, who was carrying a similar bag. One of the officers fatally shot the 58-year-old man after he pulled out a box-cutter. "After the shooting, the bag was examined and it wasn't the bag (stolen) from the car," Mr. Eby said. He said police Superintendent Rob Rothwell confirmed information obtained by the victim's sister that Mr. Hubbard was not a suspect in the break-and-enter.

Let's hope the video vindicates these officers.

This was a 58 year old man, holding a box-cutter. He would have to get very close to pose a threat no?

Did they not have batons? Knock the box-cutter from his hand?

Did they not have feet? Move out of reach?

Did he really pose a threat to these two cops? Was the fact it was two female officers a mitigating fact?

"police were called after a vehicle theft in downtown Vancouver"

waaaaaaa!!!!!!... police respond to vehicle theft????

"Did they not have batons? Knock the box-cutter from his hand?
"

depends.. they were both female and females are usually smaller then males. Is a decription of the officers available?

Somebody is in the dodo.

Hey Dean...you should know better than anyone...size doesn't matter

But...in this case...it should be investigated the training the cops had...experience with other perpetrators? Been attacked before?

And I want to know where this homeless man's sister came from? Why isn't he living with her? I know if my brother was homeless...I'd drag him off the street myself (after I disarmed him of his boxcutter) and lock him in a room in my house if I had to.

And...to the homeless guy...that boxcutter was not a weapon...it was a hammer...it's how he built his home(s). And the officers were taking away his means of shelter.

Without knowing all the details...I'd presume the officers were inexperienced, and overreacted. It will probably be deemed a "justified" shooting, as he was brandishing a weapon...but it will basically freeze their careers from being ripe with advancement.

Without knowing all the details

The key phrase we don't have all the details .

AgesAces... easy to say that you would keep him home.. hard to do. short of locking him in your basement it is not always possible. Some homeless people are there because they are running away from the family and regardless of how much the family tells them they love them and want them back they just wont go back.

Don't brandish a blade and advance on police officers.

true.. but that really depends on the situation.
hell I have disarmed people who advanced on me with a knife. and this when I was under 20 and with no special police training.

And did you have a gun?

I would think that a baton would trump a box-cutter in a street fight. Certainly blinding someone with pepper-spray and then wacking their hands would do the trick....but then again, one must be in possession of a set of balls to do that I suppose.

Dean that guy was drunker then you and you were on the floor .

LOL... no no.. I was the one who was drunk.. a "gang" of kids tried demanding my money from me.. The leader had a knife... the leader ended up on the ground with his friends laughing at him,.

just one the gun JTF ( this is my rifle, this is my gun.. )

Deank wrote:LOL... no no.. I was the one who was drunk.. a "gang" of kids tried demanding my money from me.. The leader had a knife... the leader ended up on the ground with his friends laughing at him,.

just one the gun JTF ( this is my rifle, this is my gun.. )

One is for shooting...one is for fun .

So you didn't exactly have the same options as the police officers, did you....

that time? no.
the other time.. close to the same options yes. disarmed the guy by handing him a beer and telling him to shut up quit acting like a baby and telling him that he could either drink the beer or have it shoved up his ass if he did not drop the knife.

Breaking News---

Other hand had a stapler in it!!

a boxcutter and a stapler????? was he an disgruntled ex UPS employee?

Tough decision. Try to wrestle with a guy who has something that can hurt or even kill me or just shoot the bastard.

Why would you want to 'wrestle' with the guy. You'd want to keep a bit of a distance between the two of you and use a weapon (baton) to attach the arm holding the box-cutter, or alternatively, strike to render the opponent unconscious or disabled in some other way.

You can pretty much cause as much damage with a baton as you can with a box-cutter.

However, this is about escalating the weaponry for convenience I reckon. But, I'd think pepper-spray and a baton would be sufficient.

oh boy where to start...

knock the knife out of his hand with a baton, are you crazy? depending on the brand name of baton the max size when extended is about 26 inches. thats just over 2 feet. would you really want to be that close to someone threatening to cut you? absolutely not.

not only is that waay too close for comfort with an edged weapon, but consider the small target that someones hand actually makes, and how fast a person can move their hands. The better target would of course be on the legs or body somewhere, which means getting in even closer to that knife to try and reach past it. For an officer to even attempt something as ridiculous as that would be just asking to be seriously cut or killed.


on pepper spray: it doesnt say in this article whether it was used or not, so we can only speculate that either the situation escalated too fast for them to try pepper spray first or they did try it first and it simply didnt work.

interesting fact for you all, pepper spray (actually OC spray) as a rule does not affect anyone who is drunk, high, or has a mental disorder. Aside from those large groups, it also simply does not affect about 15% of regular people. so its not as simple as just "blinding the guy with pepper spray"

"This was a 58 year old man, holding a box-cutter. He would have to get very close to pose a threat no?"

if someone is advancing on you with an edged weapon, your "safe" zone is about 30 feet away from them. From 30 feet, a person standing still can break into a charge and be on top of an officer cutting them before the officer has time to draw their gun and aim. so depending on whether you consider 30 feet to be 'very close' .....

"Did they not have feet? Move out of reach?"

training would dictate that they attempt to gain some distance. Distance is the first thing any officer wants when dealing with a weapon. But without knowing the details and the area they were in its hard to say... maybe they had nowhere to back up, or nothing to take cover behind, maybe if they moved any farther away the man would have been a threat to other members of the public. Who knows.

pretty much anywhere you go its pretty clear cut, pull a knife and advance on police officers, get shot. justifiably so.

"Aside from those large groups"
LOL

AdamX wrote:oh boy where to start...

knock the knife out of his hand with a baton, are you crazy? depending on the brand name of baton the max size when extended is about 26 inches. thats just over 2 feet. would you really want to be that close to someone threatening to cut you? absolutely not.

not only is that waay too close for comfort with an edged weapon, but consider the small target that someones hand actually makes, and how fast a person can move their hands. The better target would of course be on the legs or body somewhere, which means getting in even closer to that knife to try and reach past it. For an officer to even attempt something as ridiculous as that would be just asking to be seriously cut or killed.


on pepper spray: it doesnt say in this article whether it was used or not, so we can only speculate that either the situation escalated too fast for them to try pepper spray first or they did try it first and it simply didnt work.

interesting fact for you all, pepper spray (actually OC spray) as a rule does not affect anyone who is drunk, high, or has a mental disorder. Aside from those large groups, it also simply does not affect about 15% of regular people. so its not as simple as just "blinding the guy with pepper spray"

"This was a 58 year old man, holding a box-cutter. He would have to get very close to pose a threat no?"

if someone is advancing on you with an edged weapon, your "safe" zone is about 30 feet away from them. From 30 feet, a person standing still can break into a charge and be on top of an officer cutting them before the officer has time to draw their gun and aim. so depending on whether you consider 30 feet to be 'very close' .....

"Did they not have feet? Move out of reach?"

training would dictate that they attempt to gain some distance. Distance is the first thing any officer wants when dealing with a weapon. But without knowing the details and the area they were in its hard to say... maybe they had nowhere to back up, or nothing to take cover behind, maybe if they moved any farther away the man would have been a threat to other members of the public. Who knows.

pretty much anywhere you go its pretty clear cut, pull a knife and advance on police officers, get shot. justifiably so.

So. Does not your training include how to disarm a person then, other than shooting them?

Seems lacking if that's the case, or has it been dumbed-down to accomodate little people being admitted to the service?