Should Paramedics get body armor/ protective vests?

I got a brief glimpse the other day on the news about this and I see Manitobapost has a posting about it now as well.
Paramedics ( or at least one Paramedic ) is asking that the province/city/whoever pay for vests/armor for all paramedics becuase of the escalating violence and the fact that paramedics "are on the front line".


I have some questions I posted them at Manitoba Post not sure if they will go up or not.

How many paramedics in Winnipeg have been stabbed or shot ( or shot at or stabbed at) in the last 10 years?
How many across Canada/North America?
What areas across Canada/North America pay for vests for paramedics?
How often in Winnipeg are paramedics first on the scene of a shooting or stabbing? First even before police?

I seem to recall hearing about people dieing ( not neccessarily in Winnipeg) because police did not feel the situation was calmed down enough to let the paramedics in. So the question begs, are paramedics actually ever in that much danger? Its not like they are battlefield army medics. But I just dont know, thats why it would be great to get some of those questions answered.

Would issuing them tasers be more cost-effective?

I'd read that paramedics in other cities have been attacked. They do tend to arrive on scene first. I also understood that if the scene was unstable they would hold back until the police arrive.

That said these people are often involved in real ugly situations and if a vest will give them a certain level of comfort and maybe even save one I'm all for it. Small price to pay for some very good people...

"I also understood that if the scene was unstable they would hold back until the police arrive"

Thats the one that gets me. I have heard that is standard operating procedure. So... are they ever in the "line of fire"???

I have a couple of friends who are/were paramedics, and they have mixed feelings about the vests.

#1...they really only do any good for direct front/back shots...and not super effective against knives
#2...they are very heavy/hot to wear...and can cause problems with performing parts of their duties
#3...they can only get the fibre-type vests rather than those with metallic substance inside, because of their use of AED and possible exposure to other electrical hazards.

Their SOP says if they "suspect" a danger to their lives...they are supposed to wait for the police or fire department to deal with the danger before they can perform a rescue. But most of those who are/were attacked were not suspicious of the situation...they were "blindsided".

It's usually either the person who injured the other trying to prevent treatment...or someone attacking the Paramedics to try and steal equipment or more often drugs.

Perhaps this is yet another reason for the Fire Department to take over. Real men don't need no friggn' vests.

This is a case of one wimpy paramedic afraid of working in the North End.

Well he already bought his vest, so why is he complaining still?

See the thing of it is, I just dont know if this is neccessary or not. I dont recall reading/hearing many if any cases of paramedics being knifed or shot.

If its a matter of making them FEEL safer, perhaps some education is all they need. ie.. dont go in to a violent situation.

but of course given the way our system works that education would cost $2500 per person and include a pay raise for the extra education.

But when you are working in areas that have gun shot victims and knife victims or any other violent disturbance, how do you judge when it is safe to proceed with doing your job of saving someone's life? The only people who can attest to that are those on the front lines.
And in this ever increasingly gun happy city, I don't have a problem with outfitting our front line staff with these vests. If a paramedic is the first on scene he/she is just as vulnerable to being injured as a police officer is.

Police are first on the scene to many fires and accidents.. we should equip them with fire trucks and ambulances?

Not all the time are the police the first on a scene, sometimes it is the "first responders" and they are the paramedics. For car accidents, shootings, domestic disputes, fires or any other incident that may involve physical injuries, paramedics are dispatched along with the police and it can be a toss up to who arrives first, depending on proximity to the location. And sometimes, police don't make the scene until much later if they are involved in another incident.

yeah but "sometimes" cops are first... so they should drive fire trucks and ambulances right? Since "sometimes" ambulance drivers are first they should have body armor.

I am just not following the arguement on this one, mind you all I have to go on is manitobapost website.. I just want more information before I can agree or disagree that they need this.

Deank wrote:yeah but "sometimes" cops are first... so they should drive fire trucks and ambulances right?

Why do you do this???

I recall reading that fire/ambulances are almost always first on the scene. But fire fighters and police are all trained on first responder first aid no? Are not cops taught how to deal with fires if they arrive upon a fire scene?

do what? Seriously.. the arguement is somehow that Paramedics are first on the scene so they need armor. well frick me.. Police officers are first on the scene so they should have fire trucks.

Some actual facts is all I want, I am not the one that keeps twisting this, other people do and I simply twist it back.

How many paramedics in Winnipeg have been stabbed or shot ( or shot at or stabbed at) in the last 10 years?
How many across Canada/North America?
What areas across Canada/North America pay for vests for paramedics?
How often in Winnipeg are paramedics first on the scene of a shooting or stabbing? First even before police?

If a police officer is first on the scene, they are physically protected from harm in that they have body armour, guns, etc to secure a scene until the fire department/paramedics/ambulance arrive. But if the paramedics/ambulance arrive first they do not have the body armour to safely secure the scene where potentially they could be harmed. I think this is the argument that is being put forth by the paramedics. Has more to do with personal safety of the paramedics when dealing with potential personal physical harm when attending to the violent situations incidents that have been happening in the city lately.
An interesting opinion on the subject:
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/opinion/editorials/editorial---paramedics-entitled-to-safety-53215782.html?viewAllComments=y

thanks great article.

unfortunately it still uses the believe arguement

"The simple facts, however, are that paramedics started asking for the equipment five years ago because many of them believe, with justification, that it could save a life or prevent a serious injury."

what I would like to see from anywhere the justification. Simply feeling that you are in trouble does not automatically equate that you are in trouble.

and another article:
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/paramedic-wants-city-to-buy-vests-53029007.html
when you read this one, question why are the members of the downtown biz outfitted by the City of Winnipeg with armour and the paramedics are not?????????????
This one actual shows that a paramedic has been around and seen the stuff that justifies the purchase of body armour for all concerned. If certain members choose not to wear it, fine, at least it is there if needed. Let's not wait until a tragedy happens. Be pro-active instead of re-active and have all of these folks return home safe and sound to their families after each and every shift.

muchos gracias.. this article has alot more information in it.

So, you believe that the request is only reasonable after a paramedic has been shot or stabbed? I get it now. No point wasting that money until it is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is necessary.

What a weird and convoluted world we live in. We have to prove that these people are in harms way otherwise the paramedics are wimps.

uggg.. it seems we have our own "godwin's law" in winnipeg

"What about all the money given to the white elephant human rights museum by Katz and Doer? Waste of money when it could have been put to better use like protection for the paramedics and better wages."
sigh...

grumpy old man wrote:So, you believe that the request is only reasonable after a paramedic has been shot or stabbed? I get it now. No point wasting that money until it is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is necessary.

What a weird and convoluted world we live in. We have to prove that these people are in harms way otherwise the paramedics are wimps.

lets outfit all bus drivers with body armor too, while we are at it, all the city workers. never know when someone might attack them.. no worries if there is no proof that it will ever happen.. lets just spend money with wild abandon.

Or, here is an idea, lets actually get some facts and review the situation before making a decision about spending money... ahh but thats crazy talk

And babysitters and IT geeks and waitresses. Sorry to rain on your rant Deank, but your argument sucks a$$. Except maybe bus drivers. They want shield installed. But first, let's wait for a few more to get assaulted because we've not yet demonstrated that enough of them have been injured seriously enough to spend a few measly dollars.

So my arguement that I actually get some facts before I make my own opinion is stupid?

Nice.

Not at all. Where did I say that? You kept wanting proof that someone died before you'd deign spend any money on safety.

If we are going that far, the bus driver's should not have the body armour but consideration should be looked at for shields similar to those in the taxi cabs here in Winnipeg.
If you were a front line service worker dealing with the most dangerous and often unpredictable people in this city and are being paid by the City of Winnipeg then I would think that your employer would want you to be protected. It costs a lot less to protect your employees than to pay out disablility/death benefits and then retrain new employees if "accidents" happen on the job.
Realizing this may be a far fetched exaggeration but I would think that if it were you on the front line Dean, you and your spouse and children would want you as safe as you could possibly be. In this ever increasingly violent society we live in, where criminals can go to the corner and buy a gun for $20.00, why shouldn't we protect those who are meant to protect us from harm?