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BBC World Service employment discussion

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1BBC World Service employment discussion Empty BBC World Service employment discussion Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:58 pm

helgihg

helgihg
newbie

Hi, all.

I didn't feel like calling BBC World Service but still I feel the need to express myself on a topic I was listening to.

The (seemingly ridiculous) question BBC World Service proposes, is whether people should rather do nothing and stay on employment benefits than take jobs well below their expectations. Say you've spent 6 years studying architecture and all you get offered is delivering pizzas. I'm sure that I'd think about just staying on benefits if that were my particular case, but still, particularly in this economy, the very notion of refusing a job while unemployed at all seems outright absurd. I'd take the crap job and keep looking for a job in my field.

Actually, believe it or not, there is a counter-argument to that, which is raised by many calling in. It's that potential employers tend to refuse hiring people who are "over-qualified".

Most employers want to keep their staff for them to build up experience. Let's say that the aforementioned unemployed architect applies for a job selling books through phone. The employer knows that this person will actively be looking for a better job and so all the experience in telemarketing that the potential employee will pick up over the course of some months, will essentially be lost once he finally finds a job to his liking.

I can't help thinking about my own situation in this regard, and wanted to point out to something ironic. I'm a software developer. I have a decade of experience using virtually any operating system and virtually any programming language. It basically doesn't matter which computer-related job you give me, odds are I'll do just fine at it. But here's the thing; I have no formal education. I'm a college drop-out.

Throughout my entire career it has bothered me to not have any formal education. Once in a job interview, I feel I can prove my qualities but the problem has been getting an interview to begin with... to not be excluded immediately because of the fact that all I have to prove my abilities is work experience. Extensive work experience, but still only work experience.

And now I feel like I'm right there in the cozy middle. I know enough to be qualified, but I'm not over-qualified either. I don't have to rely on having to deliver pizzas for the rest of my life because I have no education, nor do I have to worry about potential employers worrying that I'll quit the moment I get another job offer. I'm competent enough for a job in my field, but I don't have to worry about being rejected because of over-qualification. I can deliver pizzas and I can do high-grade software engineering and in fact, anything in between.

So in this particular economy, maybe non-formal education is the best thing to have. Work experience and high capability without the problem of never getting a job below expectations for the exact reason that one is too competent.

I think it's a fair dilemma being highly educated and unemployed. You can't get the low-paying jobs because you're over-qualified, and you can't get the jobs in your own field because we're in the middle of an economic hurricane. You're forced to aim for the most difficult of jobs to get.

In that regard, my lack of formal education seems actually helpful, contrary to what most people would expect.

I dunno, I was just thinking and figured I wanted to share this with someone.

AGEsAces

AGEsAces
moderator
moderator

Your dilemma has been mine as well for a number of years.

And you're right about the hiring process. If I review a resume and I see tons of education and/or experience...and I'm reviewing someone for an "entry level" job...I have to think twice about hiring that person. They are probably not going to last long.

Your reference to pizza-delivery or phone sales may not be the best comparison. Industries like that tend to expect high turn-over rates for workers. There may be 1/100 who get hired and actually make it more than a year. But certainly for other types of employment, like WalMart greeter Wink.

Part of the problem though, for corporate hiring (like the Architect or Engineer or even IT) is those doing the hiring have been trained to look for the degrees first...and discard anyone who doesn't have that "minimum" training.

Many companies here though, are becoming aware of that issue. That "formal education" doesn't mean as much...but that "life experience" means quite a bit. Even the RCMP is no longer looking for the "young guns" they used to. Their target hiring pool is currently for people between 26-36 years old...who have gotten the "young stupid stuff" out of their system already.

http://www.photage.ca

helgihg

helgihg
newbie

AGEsAces wrote:Many companies here though, are becoming aware of that issue. That "formal education" doesn't mean as much...but that "life experience" means quite a bit.

I'm glad to hear that. It's easy to think it's just my bias, but I speak from experience when I say that formal education (in my field, IT) is extremely overrated. There are so many graduates that just don't "get it", they don't have the touch. The best ones are of course those who have both the touch, and the formal education, but formal education without the touch is almost worthless in my opinion and they generally become managers or something pretty quickly. Especially in an industry that changes by the minute, formal education will always be overrated in my opinion. It's simply not enough. It's not even close to enough. One has to be able to learn on their own accord and if one has that, the formal education is basically just a collection of anecdotes that one would have learned on the internet anyway.

Deank

Deank
contributor eminence
contributor eminence

I tend to stay away from the older more experienced people that I hire. Would much rather have someone with a fresh degree or diploman under their belt. BUT I am hiring for a specific position that MOST experienced people would not want to stay long in and would only use as a spring board into a different job in the company.

AGEsAces

AGEsAces
moderator
moderator

One benefit you should get from your company though.

If they will pay for you to get certs...like the MS Certs, or some kind of SQL Testing...maybe get those certificates...they would mean just as much as a degree in programming to the right person.

An example would be in my industry...there is a college degree program available...but through external training paid for by my company, i have over 40 certificates in various topics within my field. When someone asks me for training/experience...I simply send them my "portfolio" of training...and I usually get a "wow" response.

http://www.photage.ca

helgihg

helgihg
newbie

Deank wrote:I tend to stay away from the older more experienced people that I hire. Would much rather have someone with a fresh degree or diploman under their belt. BUT I am hiring for a specific position that MOST experienced people would not want to stay long in and would only use as a spring board into a different job in the company.

Sounds like the exact opposite to my industry. I'm sure it depends really heavily on which industry we're talking about when it comes to these things. Pretty interesting, really. Merely out of curiosity, which industry are you in?

AGEsAces wrote:If they will pay for you to get certs...like the MS Certs, or some kind
of SQL Testing...maybe get those certificates...they would mean just as
much as a degree in programming to the right person.

Yeah, that's actually pretty popular in the IT industry, funding that kind of stuff. In fact, usually it's even unconditionally, they do it because employers who know they get supported in that way at their job will hold on to their jobs for as long as they can. I think it's a good policy, whether conditional or not.

Deank

Deank
contributor eminence
contributor eminence

software engineering testing( automated)

we tend to get people applying who are looking to work as Engineers ( programmers) and are looking for a way in the backdoor. or who have recently been let go from other positions and just want a stop gap job until something better comes along.

shite I even had one guy tell me that in an interview.

Guest

Anonymous
Guest

Honesty trumps a lot of shet imo.

Deank

Deank
contributor eminence
contributor eminence

yeah but when you are hiring for a permanent position and the guy knows that.. why even bother wasting my time?

Guest

Anonymous
Guest

Indeed.

grumpy old man

grumpy old man
administrator
administrator

The trick is getting in the door eh? Ever left education off your resume?

My experience when hiring has to do with the quality of candidates and the pool I'm drawing from. When I was hiring professionals the pool was very deep. Plus I was hiring in a very technical arena. P. Eng's. were mandated. All the experience in the world would not have cut it.

In another field I hired into, creative, a degree/diploma was not mandatory. Much experience and a great portfolio equaled a degree.

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