will nurses be the Death of the NDP?

I think it is very easy to pick on the nurses here. But what about the Doctors? How much to they make? Are they "overpaid" too? Maybe we should be having this discussion as well.

What about lawyers? pharmacists? politicians? Are all these people overpaid? Should we consider cutting their pay aswell because it's too high?

we already complained about doctors.. ummm 4 weeks ago ? when they got their raise

I don't believe the debate is so much how much nurses make (they are paid fairly for the work they do IMO) rather it's the process. The notion one must be paid as well as another annoys me no end. Earn your keep and never mind what another earns.

I advocate paying for the best and what the market demands. Anything else smacks of socialism and I abhor that. If an athlete or actor earn scads of coin good for them. Remember an athletes' career is short-lived. Let them earn whatever we are willing to pay them. Ditto an actor. If their work helps create wealth for another pay them.

Why do people care so much what others earn?

I think the difference is that the taxpayer pays for the nurses' coin....same with the doctors.

It all gets down to value for money. And let's face it, some professions are never to be questioned as it is wrong to challenge the gods (doctors, nurses, cops, firefighters, etc.)

With nurses that is the nature of the beast since what 95% are employed by public hospitals and clinics in Canada? While we should challenge anyone that feeds off the public teat, value is indeed the differentiator.

The notion of casting aspersions on nurses vs. politicians escapes me. They bring enormous value. As do police and firemen.

Doctors are another subject altogether. 10 - 12 years of (very expensive) education. Extreme range of responsibilities with dire consequences. High demand the world over. Yeah, let's nickle and dime our doctors...

Imo, there's a big difference between doctors and nurses, but the nurses won't agree.

But tying pay to other places is crazy.

JTF wrote:Imo, there's a big difference between doctors and nurses, but the nurses won't agree.

What do you view as the main differences?

Diagnoses, surgery, 7+ MORE years of formal education, etc.

Don't get me wrong, nurses are incredibly valuable members of the health community. Maybe even as valuable as doctors. But they have a differing set of responsibilities. I don't know if I would want to perform some of the duties nurses handle. But at the end of the day, they are not equal to a doctor.

I also agree that nurses are not the same (notice how I did not use the term "not equal" ) as doctors, but I really do feel that your average joe blow very much undervalues nurses. I have a mother who is a nurse, I have several friends both male and female who are nurses; I hear what goes on; I've heard the verbal and seen the physical abuse that nurses undergo that doctors do not have to put up with because they spend such little time with the patients. Nurses in every province and state earn their keep just as much as doctors, and I will state this until the day I die.

I remember well my days as a porter/orderly. I've seen all that you describe EdWin. I also have seen what doctors put up with. Especially the doctors on staff in hospitals. The ER and ICU physicians in particular.

Your average joe blow underestimates MOST people that work in the health care field. Those that dismiss or diminish those peeps need to spend a day or two cleaning up after a 76 year old man that cannot control himself. Or console a two year old little girl scared and in pain.

We compare apples to oranges when talking about nurses and doctors. But they ALL are saints in my books.

Amen these people desearve what they get as this is one of the hardest jobs and tough on the family life as well.

If the Government really wanted to help it could cut way back on the WRHA it is out of control . They have way to many people and they take up way to much office space. The goverment is right now renovating one of the older buildings at Deer Lodge 3 floors so that more WRHA staff can move in .
For the last 24 yrs they have told my wife's Alzheimer's support group that they could not afford to do Air conditioning on her floor . But low and behold their staffers move in and they found the one estimate Ive heard 4.2 mill to do the Air . Then there is the 6 mill to totally get a custom built elevator for them as the old one has to be taken out through the roof. And replaced as the old one won;t meet safety standards funny good enough for those same Alzheimer's people for 24 years .
But heaven forbid some over paid bureaucrat have to do it , take the stairs that is 3 floors come on that's tough after a day at the desk.

There is an enormous need for new ideas and people at the WHRA....and the Government for that matter.

Anyone remember years back when the Misericordia hospital was crying for money. They were complaining about a shortage of beds.

When they finally got some money, they built a parking structure!

After that, I became convinced that we were being led by idiots....still are.

Yes we have given them to much control and need to take back some of the control. At one time they worked for us now we work for them , the goverment whatever stripe they be .

JTF wrote:There is an enormous need for new ideas and people at the WHRA....and the Government for that matter.

Anyone remember years back when the Misericordia hospital was crying for money. They were complaining about a shortage of beds.

When they finally got some money, they built a parking structure!

After that, I became convinced that we were being led by idiots....still are.

I like the new Equipment HSC got.. too bad they forgot to hire people to run the equipment. To this day they still cant run all the machines due to lack of personnel. But that's ok, we have the best unused machines in the country.

Sad to say this is not only happening here but elsewhere in Canada . The system is overloaded with bureaucracy and not enough workers.

grumpy old man wrote:Doctors are another subject altogether. 10 - 12 years of (very expensive) education. Extreme range of responsibilities with dire consequences. High demand the world over. Yeah, let's nickle and dime our doctors...

The education of doctors is paid mainly by the public taxpayer in Canada, as tuition and expenses are pathetically low for the individuals. demand may be high globally, but only in North America are they paid outlandish wages for their services, that consist 95% of writing prescriptions. And BTW, the salaried doctors in Manitoba got a 40% raise in their collective agreement!

I agree that a medical degree in Canada is relatively cheap by American standards but by no means is it cheap. I understand most MD's graduate today with a 6 figure debt. No, not cheap.

As for salaries, check Australia/New Zealand, Great Britain...

grumpy old man wrote:I agree that a medical degree in Canada is relatively cheap by American standards but by no means is it cheap. I understand most MD's graduate today with a 6 figure debt. No, not cheap.

As for salaries, check Australia/New Zealand, Great Britain...

Great Britain has about the highest paid in Europe, Here's the first job ad that I could find:

Work and Jobs in Great Britain / UK for Polish Doctors and other Doctors from EU Countries: as a specialist doctor with
a qualification as General Practitioner you have the opportunity to work for private hospitals and the NHS
We have arranged profitable short-term work assignments for German doctors in private and public hospitals all over Great Britain for more than 3 years. Far more than 10.000 English patients have been treated
successfully. At the moment there are the following opportunities:

• Permanent jobs in the NHS: approx. 50.000 - 80.000 GBP per year
  
• locum jobs in the NHS: 200 GBP per session (3-4 hours) during normal working hours.
  
• Night and weekend shifts: Payment between 60 and 75 GBP per hour.
  
• Requirements: Qualification of General Practitioner, good knowledge of the English language (often an IELTS Test with a result of above 7 or even 7,5 will be required), self-confidence - you have to be able to work independently in unfamiliar surroundings and make decisions. Also: you will have to be prepared to face the paper mountain that is required for GMC registration.

Compare this to a Manitoba job ad (note the sweet raise in April 09):

Senior Medical Officer of Health (MOH), MF3
Regular or Contract (FT)

Manitoba Health & Healthy Living
Public Health
Winnipeg, Manitoba


Advertisement Number: 20174


Salary:

Apr. 1/08 - $139,995 to $155,957, Qualification Pay – $26,361
Apr. 1/09 - $197,677 to $213,604, Qualification Pay - $36,105
Apr. 1/10 - $204,885 to $222,512, Qualification Pay - $37,599

Closing Date: Open until filled
Are you a visionary, big-picture, experienced MOH ready for
a leadership role? If you answered yes, an exciting opportunity exists at Manitoba Health and Healthy Living, Public Health Division, where you will work closely with the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority (WRHA) and a team of provincial Medical Officers of Health and other health professionals to make a difference in the health of Manitobans.
Qualifications:
A physician that is licensed (or eligible) to practice medicine in Manitoba as determined by the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Manitoba (preferably with a Special Certificate in Community Medicine from the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada) is required.

so pretty close to the same then.

JTF wrote:It's disgusting the way Doer bows to the unions.

We need to stop allowing all the part-time nursing jobs.

I know nurses that work one day a month. Really

JTF wrote:There is an enormous need for new ideas and people at the WHRA....and the Government for that matter.

Anyone remember years back when the Misericordia hospital was crying for money. They were complaining about a shortage of beds.

When they finally got some money, they built a parking structure!

After that, I became convinced that we were being led by idiots....still are.

That is the way Bureaucracy works, the more needs there are , the worse they do , the more they are rewarded with more money. If they meet all the needs, they can't ask for more funding.

I'm not sure I understand the issue with part-timers. I expect they play a very useful role, covering for the sick or holidays... Or working the odd shift when otherwise short handed. That job is tough. In addition to the actual work they do the hours are horrid.

In Great Britain the residence program is much better then here also according to a family relative practicing there.