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the winnipeg sandbox » winnipeg sandbox.. » local... » local union hates that Harper helped save autoworker jobs.

local union hates that Harper helped save autoworker jobs.

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Deank

Deank
contributor eminence
contributor eminence

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/breakingnews/PM-in-Winnipeg-today-protest-planned-45395062.html


The Winnipeg Labour Defence League is organizing to protest the Harper government’s anti-labour policies, including re-writing the collective agreements for autoworkers in southern Ontario

Guest

Anonymous
Guest

Commie Bastards!!

Freeman

Freeman
uber-contributor
uber-contributor

Can we organize a group to support Harper?

holly golightly

holly golightly
major-contributor
major-contributor

Good Post!
Freeman wrote:Can we organize a group to support Harper?

grumpyrom

grumpyrom
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major-contributor

I think they're protesting the fact that the government insisted in sticking their noses into the collective bargaining agreement that the CAW had already negotiated with GM last year. That collective agreement was satisfactory to GM's demands at the time. Now the Harper government for whatever reason saw fit to add itself as a 3rd party to a collective agreement that was already legally established and basically said "if GM wants any subsidy, we want you to tear up that contract and rewrite a new one on our terms".

I can't think of anytime in recent history where a government has added itself as a party to an already legally binding collective agreement.

No one is protesting that jobs will hopefully be saved, they're protesting the fact that the government has no business entering the collective bargaining process. Either they decide that GM's business plan is up to their lending criteria or they walk away. It's up to GM and the CAW to figure out how they will come up with a business plan that meets that criteria, not the federal government.

Freeman

Freeman
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I agree, the government should walk away from the GM deal. I suppose that works well for all the employees. After all, they have a collective bargaining agrement in force.

Deank

Deank
contributor eminence
contributor eminence

"It's up to GM and the CAW to figure out how they will come up with a business plan that meets that criteria, not the federal government."

Regardless of it being government money or some private investor, anyone bringing that amount of money to the table has every right to tell the other people involved that contracts will change, or the money is not coming in.

or are you saying that all those CAW employees would rather be out of a job?

Guest

Anonymous
Guest

grumpyrom wrote:I think they're protesting the fact that the government insisted in sticking their noses into the collective bargaining agreement that the CAW had already negotiated with GM last year. That collective agreement was satisfactory to GM's demands at the time. Now the Harper government for whatever reason saw fit to add itself as a 3rd party to a collective agreement that was already legally established and basically said "if GM wants any subsidy, we want you to tear up that contract and rewrite a new one on our terms".

I can't think of anytime in recent history where a government has added itself as a party to an already legally binding collective agreement.

No one is protesting that jobs will hopefully be saved, they're protesting the fact that the government has no business entering the collective bargaining process. Either they decide that GM's business plan is up to their lending criteria or they walk away. It's up to GM and the CAW to figure out how they will come up with a business plan that meets that criteria, not the federal government.

When the goverment is lending money to someone then they do have the right to make sure it doe,s what it is supposed to .

What the union is protesting is its control or lack of control over that , some day they will see the times have changed and they are not in such a good position to demand from any longer.

Freeman

Freeman
uber-contributor
uber-contributor

Perhaps the CAW should be reminded that the government involvement is intended to save the jobs of their members. One does not bite the hand that feeds.

Guest

Anonymous
Guest

I wonder though what guarantee the governments are getting as to jobs saved and what stays open here . Someone on the radio was saying that GM will still cut some and scale back even with our money .

Freeman

Freeman
uber-contributor
uber-contributor

I guess thats the point. Why would anyone throw money into the pit if they are going to continue to run the business status quo. Isn't that part of the reason why its at this point?

Guest

Anonymous
Guest

The union has gone to the well so many times that it's dry.

The present workers can thank the retirees for this situation imo. They've got themselves a very nice pension that GM cannot afford any longer.

The answer appears clear to me.

grumpyrom

grumpyrom
major-contributor
major-contributor

JTF wrote:The union has gone to the well so many times that it's dry.

The present workers can thank the retirees for this situation imo. They've got themselves a very nice pension that GM cannot afford any longer.

The answer appears clear to me.

The real reason is WHY can't GM afford that pension? Instead of blaming the retiree's, blame GM and the US pension fund laws that are far too weak. Had the pension funds been properly funded none of this mess would have occured, regardless of what the mass media spews. But as always it's far easier to blame to union and it's members.

I'm not going to argue this one to death any more.

Guest

Anonymous
Guest

Why do not the union put up or shut up they have taken a good chunk of the workers pay checks over the years .

grumpyrom

grumpyrom
major-contributor
major-contributor

What on earth do you mean by that Pav? Yes, they have collected dues over the years, so in return for that you expect them to turn their backs on their members and NOT negotiate the best deal they can for them? What exactly are you trying to say?

I think the unions in this matter have done a remarkable job for their members, they've been working around the clock to find a way of both finding the savings required and impacting their members to a minimal degree. That is incredibly difficult given some of the demands made of them.

Getting back to the pension issue, if you'll notice the UAW is now the LARGEST shareholder in Chrysler as part of the deal that was reached with them. That alone should give you an idea how large the pension hole created was. Seems like GM will probably have to reach a similar deal. So contrary to what many may feel, the unions have it in their best interests to see these companies do well as they will effectively be the owners of both these companies.

Guest

Anonymous
Guest

Then as owners they should do more to pay the bills , what i mean and you can not see it is . The union is not having hard time so why are they so afraid of change if it helps out the company who pays them .
After all no cheque is the same for them as the worker . And they do not write them the pay cheques nor do they have to make payroll . you will never convince me of the union as owners just as takers of money for their own good . I have and do own my own business .

grumpy old man

grumpy old man
administrator
administrator

For me it is easier to blame the union (never the workers BTW).
For others it is easier to blame management/the company.

What else is new?

The notion that the UAW has done a remarkable job and that they've been working around the clock and it is incredibly difficult is laughable at best.

The UAW works for its members. Of course it does. What is their reason to exist otherwise? All they have to do is negotiate. anything else is hyperbole.

Any problems that the big three have are the joint responsibility of the union and the management. Not one or the other.

It is absurd to suggest that management alone is responsible. Please keep in mind that the union holds an anvil over management's head when negotiating: do as we say or we go on strike.

Unions are evil.

grumpyrom

grumpyrom
major-contributor
major-contributor

How is that any different than management saying do as we say or we lock you out? It's a negotiating tool either party can decide to use. It's not exclusive to the worker's side of things.

Also, to clarify it's the CAW that is working round the clock with GM and the fed's at the moment. It's the UAW in the US that ultimately owns Chrysler now, and will soon own GM due to the staggering amount they are owed to their pension funds. Funds that neither company put away for the future.

grumpy old man

grumpy old man
administrator
administrator

Great. Let's watch the unions turn the two companies around. After all, they do know better than everyone else how to run a company.

I can hardly wait until the next contract talks when the union begins negotiating with itself. That will be hilarious. I chuckle now thinking about it. You know, like that Winnipeg union office that banned and suspended its own staff because of their own unionizing efforts.

Hahahahahahahah chortle short. Delicious.

grumpy old man

grumpy old man
administrator
administrator

grumpyrom wrote:How is that any different than management saying do as we say or we lock you out? It's a negotiating tool either party can decide to use. It's not exclusive to the worker's side of things.
True that. My recollection on this is fuzzy at best. It is a rarity for the big three to lock out its employees. Has it ever happened? I Googled it and there were no results.

grumpyrom

grumpyrom
major-contributor
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The big 3 have not to the best of my knowledge but plenty of other companies have, the last big one I can recall being Caterpillar locking out their workers for around a year before arriving at a deal. Firestone also locked out workers in recent years if I remember correctly.

It goes both ways, neither side WANTS to strike or lockout.

Guest

Anonymous
Guest

grumpy old man wrote:Great. Let's watch the unions turn the two companies around. After all, they do know better than everyone else how to run a company.

I can hardly wait until the next contract talks when the union begins negotiating with itself. That will be hilarious. I chuckle now thinking about it. You know, like that Winnipeg union office that banned and suspended its own staff because of their own unionizing efforts.

Forgot about that but yes agree it would be neat as to what they say to the raise, even if you do not deseave it .

Hahahahahahahah chortle short. Delicious.

Freeman

Freeman
uber-contributor
uber-contributor

To make a blanket statement that the problem with GM's pension plan is due to underfunding by the employer is naive. The vast majority of defined benefit pension plans are facing massive funding liabilities due to the fall of the markets. Pension plans count on a reasonable return in order to meet their obligations and all one has to do is read the newspaper to understand what is going on. That being said, thats an issue separate from the whole crisis that the automakers are in. Poor management, including selling the farm to pacify CAW demands has put them in the mess they are in.

Guest

Anonymous
Guest

Yes how true ours has taken a hit too.

Deank

Deank
contributor eminence
contributor eminence

grumpyrom wrote:The big 3 have not to the best of my knowledge but plenty of other companies have, the last big one I can recall being Caterpillar locking out their workers for around a year before arriving at a deal. Firestone also locked out workers in recent years if I remember correctly.

It goes both ways, neither side WANTS to strike or lockout.
yeah but as long as its within legal bounds any employer should have the ability to tell the employees what they are making, if they dont like it, they can leave, but they certainly should not be able to prevent said employer from carrying on his business by blocking his access to his buildings or by threatening his workers with violence.

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