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Missing Link Found!

4 posters

Go down  Message [Page 1 of 1]

2Missing Link Found! Empty Re: Missing Link Found! Tue May 19, 2009 3:12 pm

Deank

Deank
contributor eminence
contributor eminence

Dad!??? is that you?

3Missing Link Found! Empty Re: Missing Link Found! Tue May 19, 2009 3:14 pm

Bartron

Bartron
major-contributor
major-contributor

lol

4Missing Link Found! Empty Re: Missing Link Found! Tue May 19, 2009 3:41 pm

Guest

Anonymous
Guest

I wish they'd stop talking about the connection between man and monkey and just prove it. So far they haven't imo.

5Missing Link Found! Empty Re: Missing Link Found! Tue May 19, 2009 3:42 pm

Deank

Deank
contributor eminence
contributor eminence

got a mirror? Smile

6Missing Link Found! Empty Re: Missing Link Found! Tue May 19, 2009 3:53 pm

Guest

Anonymous
Guest

Missing Link Found! 2007missinglink

I thought he died in 2007.....

7Missing Link Found! Empty Re: Missing Link Found! Tue May 19, 2009 4:25 pm

Bartron

Bartron
major-contributor
major-contributor

JTF wrote:I wish they'd stop talking about the connection between man and monkey and just prove it. So far they haven't imo.

I think in the article there saying that this discovery is the proof.

8Missing Link Found! Empty Re: Missing Link Found! Tue May 19, 2009 7:45 pm

Guest

Anonymous
Guest

They keep saying it. Just saying it doesn't prove anything though.

9Missing Link Found! Empty Re: Missing Link Found! Tue May 19, 2009 7:47 pm

Guest

Anonymous
Guest

Deank wrote:got a mirror? Smile

I gave you a thumbs up...but I ain't gonna' say up what. LOL (but it was funny. )

10Missing Link Found! Empty Re: Missing Link Found! Wed May 20, 2009 7:28 am

helgihg

helgihg
newbie

JTF wrote:I wish they'd stop talking about the connection between man and monkey and just prove it. So far they haven't imo.

Science doesn't deal in proof, weird as that may sound to a lay person. The word "proof" is a mathematical concept and is thus avoided by scientists in general, since it's a concept relating to formal logic rather a conclusion from the evidence.

Now, in layman's terms, the connection between humans and monkeys is proven beyond even unreasonable doubt. There's not just the overwhelming similarities in physical characteristics, there's also the fact that we share about 98% of our genes with modern monkeys. There is no other organism on this planet that shares as many genes with us as chimpanzees do. If we're related to any other species at all, it's monkeys. The idea that we're not related to whales is more plausible than the idea that we're not related to monkeys. It is arguably the best backed up connection between two separate species in the entire field of genetics.

So, the proof? The fossil record is substantial although not 100% proof, but if there is such a thing as 100%, it's genetics.

One thing worthy of mention. It's a very, very, very common misconception that "we evolves from monkeys". It's actually technically true, because we evolved from creatures that would be classified as monkeys, but we didn't evolve from modern monkeys. Modern monkeys are not "less evolved" versions of us and they haven't evolved any less, merely in a different direction. So it's incorrect to look at modern monkeys or apes as our ancestors, they would more accurately be seen as our distant cousins.

Anyway, there is overwhelming evidence for monkeys and humans being closely related. I find it difficult to imagine what could be better proof than the DNA evidence alongside endogenous retroviruses.

Last but not least, there is not a single alternative theory out there to explain the similarities. Well, there's always creationism (sometimes put in a cheap tux and called "Intelligent Design" which is not even a coherent hypothesis, let alone a scientific theory), but I'm not going to assume you're dumb enough to be a creationist.

11Missing Link Found! Empty Re: Missing Link Found! Wed May 20, 2009 7:46 am

Guest

Anonymous
Guest

Well, what is this "link" that connects us to monkeys that 'proves ' we are a species that evolved rather than were made seperately.

Current blah-blah says we evolved from monkeys, so, why are there still monkeys I wonder?

....and don't get me started on mules... Smile

12Missing Link Found! Empty Re: Missing Link Found! Wed May 20, 2009 8:09 am

grumpy old man

grumpy old man
administrator
administrator

Well not so much mules as asses. Many peeps I know are real asses. Must be some sort of evolutionary connection there eh?

Me thinks peeps hundreds and thousands of years ago struggled with the notion of where we came from. Not having the scientific minds of those thousands of years later they came up with creationism. The notion a God created man and the rest is history.

Okay. I opened that can of worms. Speak amoungst yourselves...

13Missing Link Found! Empty Re: Missing Link Found! Wed May 20, 2009 8:18 am

helgihg

helgihg
newbie

grumpy old man: welcome

I'm gonna open up the can of mules, too.

Well, there's the specimen described in the original post of this thread, although I must say I find the news story to be a bit dubious in its descriptions, but that's typical. It's a very new find which is always good to take with a grain of skepticism, until further research has been performed.

In 2002, a specimen was discovered in Spain which became known as "Pierolapithecus catalaunicus". Many palentologists believe it's the last common ancestor of humans and the great apes, but there's still some controversy surrounding it because of the location in which it was found, so it's not entirely settled yet, but it certainly seems to be what you're looking for.

It dates to about 13 million years, which matches quite well with the genetic evidence which suggests somewhere between 11 and 20 million years ago.

I hate to simply refer people to Google, but here's a Google search.
"Pierolapithecus catalaunicus site:.edu" - The "site:.edu" restricts results to ".edu" domains, by the way. Very handy when looking up scientific stuff more generally.

Your question on why monkeys still exist today is a good one. It all boils down to a phenomenon known as "speciation". You mention the mule and another example would be the liger, a combination of a tiger and a lion. I like the lion and tiger example better because mules are silly-looking creatures.

Ligers and mules are infertile because their parent breeds have reached a point of speciation. That means that from now on, tigers and lions will evolve in separate directions and so will donkeys and horses. If this point of infertility due to genetic incompatibility were never reached, speciation couldn't occur.

Now, what makes the genetic changes reach a point of genetic incompatibility? The only mechanism I'm aware of is isolation. This has been tested in the lab with fruit flies, by the way.

Let's say that we belong to a species called Booboo. We all live happily together and interbreed like it's 1999. But then... there's an earthquake. Everyone panics. Half of us (Googoos) go north and half of us (Foofoos) go south. The area where we used to live is ruined and each group needs to figure out new ways to live off of their respective lands. Needless to say, different lands have different characteristics, so we evolve in slightly separate ways. Sooner or later we reach the level of genetic incompatibility. At that point, there's no turning back and we are in effect two separate species.

That's the strictest definition of a species; genetic compatibility. If fertilization works at all between two species, the offspring is almost always either infertile or not healthy enough to survive for long, or both. The mule and the liger are perfect examples of speciation in progress.

Keep in mind though, that the word "species" is by no means absolute. To pinpoint what exactly is called a species is an everlasting headache because sometimes species can interbreed even though we should rationally call them different species... a good example would be a dog and a wolf. Their physical characteristics can be quite different, urging us to call them different species, but they can still crossbreed. Same with the tiger and lion, which one would think should be able to interbreed because they look very similar, but they can't.

Wow, enough for now. Wink I've been debating this for years, by the way, so I could theoretically go on forever.

14Missing Link Found! Empty Re: Missing Link Found! Wed May 20, 2009 8:48 am

Guest

Anonymous
Guest

Wow. Thanks for all that info. (I trust you realize I was playing a bit of a devil's advocate).
A question I have is ....
That means that from now on, tigers and lions will evolve in separate directions and so will donkeys and horses.
what about mules and ligers though. The seem to be at an end no?

15Missing Link Found! Empty Re: Missing Link Found! Wed May 20, 2009 8:58 am

helgihg

helgihg
newbie

No prob, man. You didn't seem like you had a strong opinion anyway, and it's only normal to wonder about these things.

But yes, you're right. It means that for example mules and ligers are evolutionary dead ends. Actually, just now I was reading that ligers can on occasion breed offspring, but then they're of very bad health, so they're still evolutionary dead ends and genetically incompatible.

Interestingly, a couple of years ago I read about a human/neanderthal hybrid skeleton discovered in southern Spain. I never followed it up, but then presumably it was sterile or too unhealthy. It was a child's skeleton, I can't remember what the cause of death was supposed to have been. Then again I read it in a pop science magazine like New Scientist or something so it may just as well have been a hoax picked up by the magazine. But it makes sense that it were possible. Some biologists even believe that cross-breeding humans and chimpanzees is possible.

Anyone up for an experiment? Wink

16Missing Link Found! Empty Re: Missing Link Found! Wed May 20, 2009 10:08 am

Deank

Deank
contributor eminence
contributor eminence

"It dates to about 13 million years, which matches quite well with the genetic evidence which suggests somewhere between 11 and 20 million years ago."

HAHAHA so funny, everyone knows the world has been around for only 6000ish years.


back in reality land. Yeah man has constantly evolved and it usually changes in environment that have helped us evolve to the next level, so why are we so desperately trying to reverse global warming?

17Missing Link Found! Empty Re: Missing Link Found! Wed May 20, 2009 10:17 am

Guest

Anonymous
Guest

helgihg wrote:No prob, man. You didn't seem like you had a strong opinion anyway, and it's only normal to wonder about these things.

But yes, you're right. It means that for example mules and ligers are evolutionary dead ends. Actually, just now I was reading that ligers can on occasion breed offspring, but then they're of very bad health, so they're still evolutionary dead ends and genetically incompatible.

Interestingly, a couple of years ago I read about a human/neanderthal hybrid skeleton discovered in southern Spain. I never followed it up, but then presumably it was sterile or too unhealthy. It was a child's skeleton, I can't remember what the cause of death was supposed to have been. Then again I read it in a pop science magazine like New Scientist or something so it may just as well have been a hoax picked up by the magazine. But it makes sense that it were possible. Some biologists even believe that cross-breeding humans and chimpanzees is possible.

Anyone up for an experiment? Wink

Thanks for all your info. You've expanded my knowledge immensely.

You are now officially our resident geneticist.

18Missing Link Found! Empty Re: Missing Link Found! Wed May 20, 2009 10:19 am

Guest

Anonymous
Guest

Oh ya...regarding the experiment....give Dean enough Crown Royal and with the right amount of lipstick...... lol!

19Missing Link Found! Empty Re: Missing Link Found! Wed May 20, 2009 10:20 am

Deank

Deank
contributor eminence
contributor eminence

JTF wrote:Oh ya...regarding the experiment....give Dean enough Crown Royal and with the right amount of lipstick...... lol!

I really dont think there is any amount of lipstick I can wear that would make me look attractive to the monkey.

20Missing Link Found! Empty Re: Missing Link Found! Wed May 20, 2009 10:25 am

Guest

Anonymous
Guest

Heh heh heh....that's where the Crown Royal comes in....

21Missing Link Found! Empty Re: Missing Link Found! Wed May 20, 2009 10:28 am

Deank

Deank
contributor eminence
contributor eminence

aint no way some DAMN DIRTY APE is going to get between me and my alcohol

Smile

22Missing Link Found! Empty Re: Missing Link Found! Wed May 20, 2009 11:14 am

helgihg

helgihg
newbie

:monkeydance: beer

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