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You BE THE JUDGE: Case # 2

+4
Electrician
Deank
death128
grumpy old man
8 posters

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1You BE THE JUDGE: Case # 2 Empty You BE THE JUDGE: Case # 2 Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:46 pm

grumpy old man

grumpy old man
administrator
administrator

Gang party
Nick Sutherland was found crumpled in the basement of a home suffering grievous injuries after police received an anonymous phone call on Aug. 25, 2007.

It was quickly determined that Sutherland had suffered a brain injury. He was rushed to a hospital in northern Manitoba and then by air ambulance to Winnipeg.

Sutherland can no longer speak, read or write and is seeing a physiotherapist to try to regain those skills.

Court was told there was a party at Sutherland's home. Sutherland went down to his basement, where more than a dozen people were partying, and tried to get several of them to leave his home.

Unfortunately, Sutherland had a tattoo of one of Manitoba's known gangs on his arm. The people he was trying to evict were members of a rival gang.

Several of the people began punching and kicking Sutherland.

At one point, Simon Thomas kicked Sutherland once or twice before Sutherland fell to the ground. That was Thomas' only involvement in the beating.

But once on the ground, Sutherland was kicked in the head and at least two people jumped off the basement steps to land on the helpless victim's head.

Thomas has pleaded not guilty to assault causing bodily harm. The other people have also been charged, but will be dealt with in another court.

Crown attorney:
Argues that Thomas deserves to be put behind bars for his part in the crime.

"This is a very high-end assault causing bodily harm," the Crown said.

The Crown is asking for a jail sentence of two years less a day followed by three years of supervised probation.

"I think the public would be outraged if he is given a conditional sentence (a sentence served at home)."

The Crown said alcohol and drugs, along with negative peer relations, fuel Thomas's future chances of reoffending.

But the Crown also readily admitted Thomas' assault did not cause the brain damage, but caused bruising on his body.

And the Crown admitted Thomas was the first person to talk to police and because of what he said, others have been arrested.

The Crown said Sutherland's "entire life has changed. He's not the same person and he will never be the same person."

The Crown said Thomas had been convicted of another assault in 2006 and was handed a one-year conditional discharge.

Defence counsel:
Argues the man should be able to serve his sentence at home.

The defence said Thomas is 20, aboriginal, and from a reserve that can only be reached by air or winter road.

The defence said Thomas only receives $290 per month in social assistance. Thomas would like to work, but he is scared for his safety if he found work in the community where he was arrested. He has received threats from other people charged with the crime.

The defence said while Thomas assaulted Sutherland, his role was minor compared to the others.

The defence said when the violence against Sutherland escalated, Thomas wanted to flee, but couldn't because there were as many as 18 people in the basement and they were blocking the way out.

"He didn't participate further when the matter got out of hand."

The defence said Thomas is sorry for his part in the assault.

Sentencing principles:
Same as Case #1.

Sentencing choices:
There is no minimum period of jail for a charge of assault cause bodily harm. The maximum penalty is 10 years in prison.

You can agree with the Crown's argument for a specific jail term or you can agree with the defence to let the person serve his sentence at home. Or you can impose a sentence stiffer than the Crown or somewhere in between the recommendations by the two lawyers.

Bear in mind, most judicial decisions don't go higher than what has been recommended.

Now it's your turn to be the judge: jail for Thomas or a sentence to be served at home?

You'll find out next week how the judge ruled.

2You BE THE JUDGE: Case # 2 Empty Re: You BE THE JUDGE: Case # 2 Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:59 pm

grumpy old man

grumpy old man
administrator
administrator

In this case you throw the proverbial book at the dude. There is no way to determine which injuries caused the most damage. There is no way of determining who did what injury.

Furthermore Simon Thomas has already been convicted of assault previously for which he caught a break. He apparently did not learn a thing.

Give him the maximum the crown asked for: 2 years less a day. If judges were to impose sentences greater than those recommended by the crown I'd give this knob 10 years.

3You BE THE JUDGE: Case # 2 Empty Re: You BE THE JUDGE: Case # 2 Sun Nov 30, 2008 11:00 pm

death128

death128
contributor
contributor

Sutherland and Thomas upbringings seem to be mired in violence. Thomas brought on more serious charges against other people. Although Thomas' role in the beating of Sutherland was horrific, Thomas seems to express remorse for his role. I'd also take into account the hard conditions on remote reserves.
I'd give this dude a conditional discharge. No drinking, drugs.

4You BE THE JUDGE: Case # 2 Empty Re: You BE THE JUDGE: Case # 2 Sun Nov 30, 2008 11:26 pm

Deank

Deank
contributor eminence
contributor eminence

two years plus 1 day to ensure he serves time in a federal prison. Federal prisons have more opportunities at education. 10 year ban from drinking and drugs, mandatory alcohol training. 10 year ban from associating from members of gang that did the assualt.

5You BE THE JUDGE: Case # 2 Empty Re: You BE THE JUDGE: Case # 2 Mon Dec 01, 2008 6:26 am

Electrician

Electrician
general-contributor
general-contributor

Deank wrote:two years plus 1 day to ensure he serves time in a federal prison. Federal prisons have more opportunities at education. 10 year ban from drinking and drugs, mandatory alcohol training. 10 year ban from associating from members of gang that did the assualt.
Bans don't always get followed...
I think they should all stand the same trial for it was a multiple attack on the guy. While case #1 was a mere coincidence with no premeditation, case #2 was an all-out massacre.
They should be all given the same sentence. I'd give them a 10 year prison sentence BUT with the possibility of shortening it via good behavior and the will to do better socially and educationally.
So basically, some might be able to get out within 2 years. Up to them...

http://www.new.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1416203996

6You BE THE JUDGE: Case # 2 Empty Re: You BE THE JUDGE: Case # 2 Mon Dec 01, 2008 10:14 am

Freeman

Freeman
uber-contributor
uber-contributor

The Crown's recommendation should be followed. Obvioulsy they are trying to give him a break for ratting on the other miscreants. The argument that his actions did not cause the injuries is bullshit, its just a red herring to try to mitigate his sentence. Its not like he planned to only "hurt him a little bit." He was a willing participant to the assault, including continuing after the guy was down and presumably unconscious.

7You BE THE JUDGE: Case # 2 Empty Re: You BE THE JUDGE: Case # 2 Mon Dec 01, 2008 12:55 pm

FlyingRat

FlyingRat
moderator
moderator

At one point, Simon Thomas kicked Sutherland once or twice before Sutherland fell to the ground. That was Thomas' only involvement in the beating.

He was a willing participant to the assault, including continuing after the guy was down and presumably unconscious.

It seems he stopped once it got to that point.

However, is it because he realized this was going too far, or was he pushed out of the way by others continuing the assault?

Definitely this guy deserves jail time. He was given a break the year before, and was on a conditional discharge (or it has just elapsed, the timing of that previous sentence is not clear). Go with the Crown's recommendation.

8You BE THE JUDGE: Case # 2 Empty Re: You BE THE JUDGE: Case # 2 Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:54 pm

Freeman

Freeman
uber-contributor
uber-contributor

So, which drunken, drugged up witness sustantiated the claim that Thomas only kicked Sutherland once or twice before he fell to the ground?

9You BE THE JUDGE: Case # 2 Empty Re: You BE THE JUDGE: Case # 2 Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:05 pm

Deank

Deank
contributor eminence
contributor eminence

wait a minute.. i thought all people at parties were too busy fixing popcorn machines to properly witness the actions of other people???

10You BE THE JUDGE: Case # 2 Empty Re: You BE THE JUDGE: Case # 2 Mon Dec 01, 2008 6:34 pm

AGEsAces

AGEsAces
moderator
moderator

I wouldn’t throw the book at him…but again, it should be based on education. Force community service for 2 years. Maybe in a hospital or clinic, somewhere he’ll see people when they have been beaten.

If he completes the community service, in full, he’s clear…time served. If he misses one day…off to jail for a 10-year term.

If his involvement really was just cursory, and he did not assault after the guy went down…then it’s justified…and those who did may learn something. For those who did assault the guy on the ground…give them 3-5 years in prison, with a 2-year community
service stint after coming out.

Community service is a great educational tool (if it’s monitored properly), and does much more than an alcoholics anonymous class, or anger management seminar ever could. It puts the offense back in the face of the criminal…and makes them see it for
what it really is.

To be honest though…if all these kids (including Sutherland) are members of gangs known to be a problem…charge them all with criminal mischief…and there MUST be a law out there that says you can’t be a member of a gang…charge them with that too…even Sutherland. Get a message out quickly that being a member of a gang is wrong, and that fights between gangs will not be tolerated.

http://www.photage.ca

11You BE THE JUDGE: Case # 2 Empty Re: You BE THE JUDGE: Case # 2 Mon Dec 01, 2008 8:55 pm

rosencrentz

rosencrentz
uber-contributor
uber-contributor

There are 2 areas here that need correcting!

1- the jerk has a tatoo advertising he belongs to a gang- The tatoo artist should be sent to penitentiaty for 12 years- It is the tatoo that caused the problem!

2) The bigger problem is that this 20 year old , is onlt getting $290 per month for being an aboriginal stuck up in some hell hole of a fly in community!
What the hell is one doing up in a fly in community?
Waiting for Godot??
This poor , healthy, 20 year old aboriginal should be getting a minimun of $4,000 per month for being up there!
There is no justice!!!

http://www.elansofas.com

12You BE THE JUDGE: Case # 2 Empty Re: You BE THE JUDGE: Case # 2 Tue Dec 09, 2008 12:38 am

death128

death128
contributor
contributor

From the Winnipeg Free Press.

Judge:
"Denunciation, deterrence and rehabilitation" were the main things the judge said she had to consider in sentencing Thomas.
But she said putting Thomas in jail would be too harsh. She said she didn't think the public would be in danger if she allowed him to serve his sentence at hom. She also pointed out that rehabilitation is important to consider because Thomas was still young.
She gave Thomas an 18-month sentence to be served in the community followed by one year of supervised probation.
He is to have an absolute curfew for the first eight months of the sentence and a curfew of 7 p.m. to 7 a.m. for the rest of it. He can have four continuous hours per week to be out on personal time.
He is not to use alcohol or other intoxicants, not to go into any licenced places, except restaurants, and not to possess a weapon.
He is not to communicate with Sutherland, or the victim's caregiver, or any of five other people charged in the crime. And he is to attend addictions assessment and anger management sessions.

13You BE THE JUDGE: Case # 2 Empty Re: You BE THE JUDGE: Case # 2 Tue Dec 09, 2008 1:04 am

grumpy old man

grumpy old man
administrator
administrator

My response here is one of utter and complete amazement. It is no wonder people feel our justice system is truly fvcked.

I guess the point of this exercise is to demonstrate that the judges in our justice system are so out of touch, so mindless, they border on criminal themselves.

Nothing would make me happier than to have one of our bozos er judges here in front of me trying to rationalize case 1 vs. case 2.

What twits. What utter twits.



Last edited by grumpy old man on Tue Dec 09, 2008 8:49 am; edited 1 time in total

14You BE THE JUDGE: Case # 2 Empty Re: You BE THE JUDGE: Case # 2 Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:17 am

Guest

Anonymous
Guest

Yes but the lawyers have created all these ways out of things called responsibility . They have made fabricated and darn near made birth a reason to kill or hurt . Worse yet the justice system (goverment) has allowed all these weak kneed defenses to stand to the point that if the judge go's tough they get it thrown out on Appeal

15You BE THE JUDGE: Case # 2 Empty Re: You BE THE JUDGE: Case # 2 Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:08 am

Freeman

Freeman
uber-contributor
uber-contributor

Why deflect the blame? The judges make the decisions, pure and simple. Lets not cry about lawyers. How many cases "are thrown out on appeal"?

16You BE THE JUDGE: Case # 2 Empty Re: You BE THE JUDGE: Case # 2 Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:30 am

Deank

Deank
contributor eminence
contributor eminence

its not the cases thrown out on appeal.. its the sentance. and quite few such that there is now precedant and the judges are growing leary of going above and beyond joint reccomendations as they have a very high certainty of being quashed.

17You BE THE JUDGE: Case # 2 Empty Re: You BE THE JUDGE: Case # 2 Wed Dec 17, 2008 8:22 pm

Guest

Anonymous
Guest

Guilty of Assault Causing Bodily Harm.
I would reserve my judgement on sentencing, depending on what kind of record the accused had at the time of the assault, if he was a productive member of soceity (job or no job), and if the attack was premeditated, since the aggressors were members of a rival gang.
If the accused had a history of convinctions and violence: 5 years in prison.
If no prior record: 2 years house arrest, 500 hours community service, abstain from drugs and alcohol for the entire sentence, and a $2500 fine.

18You BE THE JUDGE: Case # 2 Empty Re: You BE THE JUDGE: Case # 2 Thu Dec 18, 2008 7:47 am

Guest

Anonymous
Guest

Freeman wrote:Why deflect the blame? The judges make the decisions, pure and simple. Lets not cry about lawyers. How many cases "are thrown out on appeal"?
More then you know I will find you the numbers

The majority are now beat on tech reasons they just claim the were put in the car roughly and there is a cry of their rights and all the do gooders let them off . sad to say they spend the night laughing at us .

19You BE THE JUDGE: Case # 2 Empty Re: You BE THE JUDGE: Case # 2 Thu Dec 18, 2008 9:50 am

Freeman

Freeman
uber-contributor
uber-contributor

Pavolo wrote:
Freeman wrote:Why deflect the blame? The judges make the decisions, pure and simple. Lets not cry about lawyers. How many cases "are thrown out on appeal"?
More then you know I will find you the numbers

The majority are now beat on tech reasons they just claim the were put in the car roughly and there is a cry of their rights and all the do gooders let them off . sad to say they spend the night laughing at us .

Whatever the numbers are, the question was why deflect the blame onto lawyers rather than the judges who impose the weak sentences? The judges also rule on the "technicalities" of the law? Our system does not hold judges accountable for their actions.

20You BE THE JUDGE: Case # 2 Empty Re: You BE THE JUDGE: Case # 2 Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:02 am

grumpy old man

grumpy old man
administrator
administrator

I'd be interested in the numbers of cases beat on technicalities. I'd be willing to bet it is a very small number.

21You BE THE JUDGE: Case # 2 Empty Re: You BE THE JUDGE: Case # 2 Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:07 am

Freeman

Freeman
uber-contributor
uber-contributor

In a recent case here in the city, I know a young guy that shot someone on the street and was charged with attempted murder and careless use of a firearm. Any bets that the attempt murder is dropped and he takes a plea on the firearm charges? Thats the way the system works and that would be the Crown calling the shots on that one. Its not a technicality, its just the way things are done.

22You BE THE JUDGE: Case # 2 Empty Re: You BE THE JUDGE: Case # 2 Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:25 am

grumpy old man

grumpy old man
administrator
administrator

That is how a lazy (and over-burdened) justice system operates. Charge a perp with everything under the sun and then plea bargain until the crown agrees. I say charge someone with all relevant charges and prosecute all of them. No more plea bargains.

Some will argue that with a weak case the plea bargain is a sure conviction. I say make a better case.

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