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Alberta - Oh the Prosperity

+5
FlyingRat
Deank
Freeman
grumpy old man
umcrouc0
9 posters

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1Alberta - Oh the Prosperity Empty Alberta - Oh the Prosperity Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:56 am

umcrouc0

umcrouc0
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A little bit more reality hit the Alberta budget today with the projected deficit increasing about another $2B to $6.9B. Now, they've got a nice stash of around $17B in a rainy day fund that should still have a few billion in it after things have turned around so it's not like the province is completely screwed. However, their budget swung from about an $8B surplus to almost a $7B deficit in a year. For a bit of perspective, that swing is substantially more than our entire budget.

So, I know that there are some people who claim that Alberta isn't just making money off of resources, and has a booming economy in other areas, and it's because of their taxation system and forward thinking government, etc. And I'm sure there are some industries that are doing well there outside of oil and gas. The question is, with the 'booming' economy, has the government done anything to put the province in a position to survive in the event of a longer term price reduction or decline in demant in oil and gas? There may be other industries doing well, but it appears that the government collects little to no money from them, at least that's what's implied by the budget swing. If oil and gas revenues fall (which they will eventually), and the veil of a properly managed economy falls off to show nothing more than a government making use of short-term high revenues to convince voters they are doing a good job to keep getting elected, then what happens?

They are still in a strong position economically if the situation is handled correctly, but I have the impression that the provincial government has used the oil boom as a way of covering all the provincial costs that taxpayers are normally on the hook for, allowing them to cut taxation levels to a point where they are no longer in any position to cover their own costs without the monsterous supply of free money thrown into the books. And because they have gained so much support from the public by doing that, they aren't realistically going to do any taxation measures that need to be done for long term provincial stability. You can't even mention resource control in Alberta and survive politically. Try telling people you need to add a provincial sales tax or increase personal or business tax rates to plan for the future and it's just not going to happen. When you've built your support on the idea that things work well when the government stays out of consumers and business' pockets and that things are going well because of the whole economy and the government's hands off approach, saying that the government needs to collect more from you to make ends meet, isn't going to go over very well. Not when you've built up this myth that the province could still function in close to the same way if not for the high resource revenues.

This is a bit of long, mainly pointless post to get people's opinion on if you think the Alberta government will actually start taking a look at the long-term financial stability of the province after this, or keep pushing the illusion that everything's fine as soon as oil and gas rebounds and they can project their next surplus? That's really what I was getting at here, and probably could have done so without the previous three paragraphs. Thoughts?

2Alberta - Oh the Prosperity Empty Re: Alberta - Oh the Prosperity Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:12 pm

grumpy old man

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I'm certain the government has subsidized that economy on the back's of the oil companies. For years the rainy day fund has grown from every barrel of oil produced. They have even done away with a provincial sales tax as a result.

Too bad Manitoba doesn't have oil... Look what it is doing for Saskatchewan.

I would expect the Alberta government will be doing things a little different now that the expected tax revenues aren't rolling in. I don't think Albertan's will be happy seeing a $7b deficit on the books. That said, the cost of borrowing is so cheap it may not be that big of a deal.

3Alberta - Oh the Prosperity Empty Re: Alberta - Oh the Prosperity Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:15 pm

Freeman

Freeman
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I really don't belive that any government has a long term strategy that takes them past the next election date. That being said (thats a line I stole from Gary Doer), the fact that they have some 17 billion in surplus probably puts them ahead of most governments when it comes to long term strategies. Keep in mind that this has built over the years while the population in Alberta has enjoyed one of the lowest tax burdens in the whole country.

4Alberta - Oh the Prosperity Empty Re: Alberta - Oh the Prosperity Mon Aug 31, 2009 6:12 pm

umcrouc0

umcrouc0
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What the heck? I had a really detailed response but my connection timed or our something and it asked me to log in again (funny because it always logs in automatically and hasn't asked me to do that for weeks). So when I logged in the reply was lost.
Anyway, the gist of it was that the low tax burden is what has caused their situation and how just riding it out until revenues go up won't help their situation in the long run because they aren't brining in enough revenue with the low tax rate to support provincial spending for their citizens and businesses (infrastructure, healtcare, etc) so unless they have a response to this with a longer term outlook they will just be in worse shape next time a resource price decline hits. And if it goes on for a longer time and they aren't prepared to cover more costs from other revenue sources a more drastic action may be needed at that time that is a lot more damaging to the system than if they started making gradual taxation changes now.

5Alberta - Oh the Prosperity Empty Re: Alberta - Oh the Prosperity Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:41 pm

Freeman

Freeman
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Low tax burden = $17 billion surplus. I'm quite sure any province would appreciate that in tough times. I really don't imagine that Alberta is going to adopt an NDP type strategy of taxing the sh1t out of anything they can touch. Watch for program cuts, after all, it is Alberta.

6Alberta - Oh the Prosperity Empty Re: Alberta - Oh the Prosperity Mon Aug 31, 2009 8:52 pm

Deank

Deank
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umcrouc0 wrote:What the heck? I had a really detailed response but my connection timed or our something and it asked me to log in again (funny because it always logs in automatically and hasn't asked me to do that for weeks). So when I logged in the reply was lost.
Anyway, the gist of it was that the low tax burden is what has caused their situation and how just riding it out until revenues go up won't help their situation in the long run because they aren't brining in enough revenue with the low tax rate to support provincial spending for their citizens and businesses (infrastructure, healtcare, etc) so unless they have a response to this with a longer term outlook they will just be in worse shape next time a resource price decline hits. And if it goes on for a longer time and they aren't prepared to cover more costs from other revenue sources a more drastic action may be needed at that time that is a lot more damaging to the system than if they started making gradual taxation changes now.

yeah it always logs people out on Thursdays

7Alberta - Oh the Prosperity Empty Re: Alberta - Oh the Prosperity Wed Sep 02, 2009 5:04 pm

FlyingRat

FlyingRat
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umcrouc0 wrote:What the heck? I had a really detailed response but my connection timed or our something and it asked me to log in again (funny because it always logs in automatically and hasn't asked me to do that for weeks). So when I logged in the reply was lost.

If you use firefox, when you hit the back button, the text you entered should still be there, then you can copy it, log in, and paste.

Probably caused by server maintenance somewhere in France. Beyond control of the sandbox. Sorry.

8Alberta - Oh the Prosperity Empty Re: Alberta - Oh the Prosperity Wed Sep 02, 2009 5:07 pm

AGEsAces

AGEsAces
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i use firefox...and that never works for me.

I've had a few times where i'll type a nice long message, and hit "CTRL-something" and it goes back a page, and when i hit "forward" again, or "back" or whatever...everything I've typed is gone...I usually don't bother retyping everything.

http://www.photage.ca

9Alberta - Oh the Prosperity Empty Re: Alberta - Oh the Prosperity Wed Sep 02, 2009 5:10 pm

FlyingRat

FlyingRat
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moderator

where is the "something" key? You have a funny keyboard!

10Alberta - Oh the Prosperity Empty Re: Alberta - Oh the Prosperity Wed Sep 02, 2009 5:16 pm

grumpy old man

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11Alberta - Oh the Prosperity Empty Re: Alberta - Oh the Prosperity Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:22 pm

Jondo

Jondo
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Grumpy who says Manitoba doesn't have oil? We just need a drilling budget to locate it - and it's there, to be sure. The only question is if the effort is worthwhile after the NDP determine what we can keep from it after we strike it. Add the various taxes including payroll and.....maybe just forget about it - I heard Hydro was hiring and also the casino's are looking for more dealers.

12Alberta - Oh the Prosperity Empty Re: Alberta - Oh the Prosperity Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:31 pm

grumpy old man

grumpy old man
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Do ya suppose Evil Doer is so fiendishly clever as to suppress the fact that Manitoba has so much oil that every Manitoban will be a millionaire, just so we can maximize federal transfer payments as long as possible???

That could be true. Never considered that Jondo. Now the word is out. Good thing Doer resigned.

13Alberta - Oh the Prosperity Empty Re: Alberta - Oh the Prosperity Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:51 pm

Jondo

Jondo
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Obviously not supressed by Doer however the business climate in Manitoba couldn't be colder. Logic tells me that oil doesn't stop at the Saskatchewan border. Let's pool our savings and buy some drill-bits - we'll deal with Doer's replacement when the time comes.

14Alberta - Oh the Prosperity Empty Re: Alberta - Oh the Prosperity Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:48 pm

eastsider

eastsider
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I swear I've seen old 30's and 40's pictures of Virden Manitoba with oil rigs in the pictures. I don't know if thats still the case in Virden but oil can't just disappear can it? Lets get drilling!

15Alberta - Oh the Prosperity Empty Re: Alberta - Oh the Prosperity Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:54 pm

grumpy old man

grumpy old man
administrator
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No those rigs were there. And there is oil produced in Manitoba. Just not enough to wipe out that dastardly deficit resulting in the elimination of our provincial sales taxes..

16Alberta - Oh the Prosperity Empty Re: Alberta - Oh the Prosperity Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:03 am

EdWin

EdWin
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What I do know is that I just bought a condo and my company is busier than ever, and there is no concern about layoffs, and I make decent coin and am about to get a raise, and get to work in the mountains. If Alberta is suffering, I'm not feeling it at all!

17Alberta - Oh the Prosperity Empty Re: Alberta - Oh the Prosperity Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:36 am

Jondo

Jondo
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Edwin if you live in Calgary then your personal up will meet a down soon enough. My cousin bought a condo downtown for $500k three years ago and then listed it for $1.8m last year - and had a few biters. Now he says he'd be lucky to get $600k (after putting $150k into it. Mind you oil will make it's way back to $100 barrels on the open false-market so there's always hope that Alberta can pretend for a few more years.

18Alberta - Oh the Prosperity Empty Re: Alberta - Oh the Prosperity Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:53 am

EdWin

EdWin
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Jondo wrote:Edwin if you live in Calgary then your personal up will meet a down soon enough. My cousin bought a condo downtown for $500k three years ago and then listed it for $1.8m last year - and had a few biters. Now he says he'd be lucky to get $600k (after putting $150k into it. Mind you oil will make it's way back to $100 barrels on the open false-market so there's always hope that Alberta can pretend for a few more years.

I don't live in Calgay, and never plan too!

19Alberta - Oh the Prosperity Empty Re: Alberta - Oh the Prosperity Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:02 am

grumpy old man

grumpy old man
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administrator

EdWin = EdmontonWinnipeg...

20Alberta - Oh the Prosperity Empty Re: Alberta - Oh the Prosperity Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:38 am

Deank

Deank
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EdWin wrote:What I do know is that I just bought a condo and my company is busier than ever, and there is no concern about layoffs, and I make decent coin and am about to get a raise, and get to work in the mountains. If Alberta is suffering, I'm not feeling it at all!


what happened to moving to phoenix?

21Alberta - Oh the Prosperity Empty Re: Alberta - Oh the Prosperity Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:45 am

EdWin

EdWin
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Deank wrote:
EdWin wrote:What I do know is that I just bought a condo and my company is busier than ever, and there is no concern about layoffs, and I make decent coin and am about to get a raise, and get to work in the mountains. If Alberta is suffering, I'm not feeling it at all!


what happened to moving to phoenix?

Tax laws owning property in the states as a non resident being taxed by two countries and paying through the nose with one income; that is what happened. It's not to say that it won't happen, because it will. Just not right now.

22Alberta - Oh the Prosperity Empty Re: Alberta - Oh the Prosperity Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:15 am

Freeman

Freeman
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Theres mountains in Edmonton?

23Alberta - Oh the Prosperity Empty Re: Alberta - Oh the Prosperity Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:04 pm

AGEsAces

AGEsAces
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Actually...it could quite well be suppressed...but I wouldn't imagine it's the Manitoba government doing it...more likely the Feds.

I was having dinner with some friends last year (June 2008), and there was a guy there from the US (Minnesota).

He does machine & engine repairs.

He got called out to a drilling site in Western Minnesota to work on a machine that drills and searches for oil.

Apparently...the company had drilled down and "pinged" something they found. And some sort of sensor device detected the ping...in Western Montana.

That's several hundred miles underground of oil deposits. We're talking MILLIONS of barrels of oil.

Anyway...apparently two days later...the FBI & Homeland Security showed up...and shut the site down...and wouldn't let them drill anymore.

Now...whether it's 100% true or not...I have no way of knowing...but the guy is a pretty reputable person...and didn't seem the type to make something like that up. But an oil reserve that large...that close to Manitoba...there's probably a good chance it's tapping the southern end of the Province as well.

http://www.photage.ca

24Alberta - Oh the Prosperity Empty Re: Alberta - Oh the Prosperity Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:12 pm

umcrouc0

umcrouc0
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Freeman wrote:Low tax burden = $17 billion surplus. I'm quite sure any province would appreciate that in tough times. I really don't imagine that Alberta is going to adopt an NDP type strategy of taxing the sh1t out of anything they can touch. Watch for program cuts, after all, it is Alberta.
Low tax burder = $7B deficit not $17B surplus.

Last year was around $8B surplus all from excess resource revenue. Reduce the resource revenue longer term and they've got nothing to keep the system going. My point is more that this is a preview of the situation they will be in when resource revenues fall than that they won't recover in a couple of years when the revenues come back up. When they are getting billions upon billions each year in resource money, they will have a surplus. But when that runs out or when the level falls (by maybe more green initiatives) without changing the taxation system slowly to get ready for it they will need to make a drastic change, which can be a lot more damaging than planning for it and slowly getting to the point where they can sustain themselves.

25Alberta - Oh the Prosperity Empty Re: Alberta - Oh the Prosperity Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:23 pm

EdWin

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Freeman wrote:Theres mountains in Edmonton?

I work anywhere from coastal BC to eastern Saskatchewan. I also work within the city of Edmonton. Yes, I do work in the mountains and no, there are no mountain in Edmonton OR Calgary.

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